The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

1. Questions to the First Minister

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Good afternoon and welcome to this Senedd Plenary session. The first item this afternoon will be questions to the First Minister, and the first question is from Llyr Gruffydd.

Train Services

Llyr Gruffydd AC: 1. Will the First Minister make a statement on the capacity of the train service between north and south Wales? OQ60178

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Llyr Gruffydd for that question, Llywydd. Capacity will improve over the coming weeks, and Transport for Wales are introducing more three-carriage services on this route. These trains will replace the old rolling stock that was retired last week.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Well, thank you very much for that explanation, but I want to raise specifically with you the chaos on the trains as football supporters from north Wales tried to travel down to watch Wales playing Croatia recently. Now, it was a total shambles, and there was a special train service put on for those supporters from the south who wanted to go Wrexham to watch the game against Gibraltar, but no corresponding service for those travelling from north who wanted to see the national team playing. Some of the trains were so full that there were people left on the platform in Abergavenny, and at the stations afterwards, literally unable to get on the train. People on the trains literally couldn't reach the toilets.
This isn't something that's only happened once, is it; it happens every time almost. And one feels that there is a total failure when it comes to making arrangements for major events, particularly when people and supporters from the north want to come down to Cardiff to see football games. So, will you ensure, First Minister, as a result of what you said about the additional services, that this won't happen again when Wales play Turkey in a few weeks, and also ensure that travellers from north Wales will have the same additional services as travellers from south Wales have when they follow their national team?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I accept the points that the Member makes. I can ask the Deputy Minister to raise those issues with TfW before the next fixtures. Post pandemic, Llywydd, TfW has dealt with 21 events in Cardiff where more than 60,000 people were involved. So, they have a great deal of experience, and they have been successful in dealing with the large numbers of people who do want to travel. But I've heard the points that the Member has made about people travelling from north Wales to Cardiff, and I will ask the Minister to pursue that issue.

Sam Rowlands AS: Llyr Gruffydd is absolutely right to raise this as a specific example, an example that many of my constituents in north Wales, like Llyr's, have to experience far too often. And what we're seeing, of course, is a symptom of years of underinvestment and poor management of the train services here in Wales. We're also seeing what is an unequal balance in terms of that investment and management as well. We know that, in south Wales, there's £1 billion now set aside for a metro, whereas in north Wales there's only £50 million earmarked for investment up there, and all this whilst there was a £125 million bail-out for Transport for Wales last week. Alongside this, though, we do have a UK Government, and Prime Minister, Rishi Sunak, who has now announced that £1 billion of investment is going to take place on the north Wales main line. So, First Minister, will you throw your support behind this investment and commit here to matching the Conservative ambition for north Wales that you've lacked for the last quarter of a century?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, it's good to hear a member of the Conservative opposition admit that there have been years of underinvestment in the railways in Wales. It's good to have him on the record on that point, because it is quite certainly true. And a number of the difficulties that Transport for Wales has faced in running services north to south has been because of the impact on those services of the managed decline of the railways in Wales, which—[Interruption.] That is the view of Network Rail, not of Welsh Government; that is what they have said.In the next asset management period—the next five-year funding period—Wales has the second worst settlement in the whole of the United Kingdom, with funding going down in cash terms—not in real terms, in cash terms—while costs are going up. The effect is a managed decline of the railways in Wales, and experts in the field say that it will take between 10 and 15 years to recover from that setback. So, I certainly hope to see further investment by the UK Government in their responsibilities, the Network Rail responsibilities that they have so let people in Wales down over, over recent times.
And as for the £1 billion, Llywydd, we know from the UK Government Secretary of State for Transport that the list of projects that the Prime Minister read out was an illustrative list. Nobody should imagine for a moment that those were real projects, it was just an illustrative list of the sort of things that could happen somewhere in the future, and, quite certainly, I am confident, far beyond the lifetime of the current Conservative Government.

Carolyn Thomas AS: I welcome that new trains will be rolled out. They are urgently needed on the services Llyr Gruffydd mentioned. I'm also concerned regarding Network Rail's plans to cut jobs and massively reduce rail renewals, as the UK Government continues to slash public transport funding. It will severely impact on issues with track drainage, encroachment of lines by trees, as well as signalling. Stripping out staff levels reduces capability, resilience and safety. Do you agree, First Minister, that this will hinder building back a railway network fit for the twenty-first century?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, of course I agree with the points that the Member makes, Llywydd. I've already set out this afternoon some of the impacts that there will be in Wales of the reduction in funding for Network Rail by the UK Government, reductions that are particularly focused on Wales. I, too, have seen reports of a plan to reduce the renewals team in Network Rail from 800 to 260, and that's despite the office of the rail regulator's call for increased spending in that area. Officials of the Welsh Government are trying to establish the facts behind those reports, but, if they were true, it would be just a further example of the way in which, while we try here in Wales to invest in rail services and, indeed, to provide more funding for Transport for Wales in-year, we do so against the background of rail services in Wales continuously being undermined by reductions in UK Government support.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Question 2 [OQ60146] has been withdrawn. Question 3—Paul Davies.

Animal Welfare

Paul Davies AC: 3. What is the Welsh Government doing to improve animal welfare in Preseli Pembrokeshire? OQ60142

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for that question, Llywydd. The programme for government contains four specific animal welfare commitments. One of those, improving the qualifications and professional status of animal welfare inspectors, is a commitment that is already making a positive impact in Preseli Pembrokeshire.

Paul Davies AC: Thank you for that response, First Minister. I recently visited Ceibwr bay in my constituency, with residents from the village of Moylgrove, who are very concerned about the disruption of seals in the bay during pupping season. It's a highly sensitive time for the species, and yet, unlike Scotland and Northern Ireland, there is no legislation in Wales to protect seals from disturbance during this period. Now, I understand that the Welsh Government has competence in this area, and it's vital that the Welsh Government uses all the tools at its disposal to ensure that these animals are protected as much as possible. So, First Minister, can your Government therefore look at this matter and consider introducing legislation to protect seals from disturbance in the very near future?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Paul Davies for that. I've been to Moylgrove myself in the past, and there's no doubt that the sight of seals around the Pembrokeshire coast is one of the great glories of that part of Wales, and attracts many, many visitors who go there for that reason. However, making sure that seals are not disturbed during the pupping season is a genuine objective that is shared by the Welsh Government. I'm very happy to give a commitment that we will pursue the points the Member has made.

Joyce Watson AC: First Minister, I first of all would like to welcome the ban on snares and glue traps, which, as of last week, became law in Wales. I'm sure the legislation will have a positive outcome for animal welfare.
The Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales, and Trefnydd mentioned two weeks ago that she was hosting a multi-agency summit on responsible dog ownership, and she said that she'd be discussing actions and enforcement regarding dangerous dogs. Again, that is about the welfare of those animals that are bred in such a way that it is a disadvantage to them as a breed, but also has huge impacts on people when that all goes wrong.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I thank Joyce Watson for those points. I'm very proud of the fact that, on 17 October, Wales's historic ban on the use of snares and glue traps has come into force. It will help to end the indiscriminate suffering of animals, both those who were the intended objects of the snares and glue traps and those other animals who were routinely caught up in them. We know that there are inexpensive, easily acquired and effective alternatives to those ways of keeping pests under control, and now, in Wales, that will become the norm.
As to the dangerous dogs summit, it took place last week—very grateful to Members around the Chamber who took part in the summit and heard some of the powerful evidence that was brought forward there. The summit did discuss a number of very specific issues to do with the way in which current use of microchipping can be improved in the future and the need for wider buy-in from all local authorities to that inspection and licensing of dog breeding establishments. But, Llywydd, it also focused on the fact that the other side of the coin from a dangerous dog is an irresponsible owner, and responsible dog ownership is the key to making sure that dogs are properly looked after, properly trained, properly controlled. There are breeds, as Joyce Watson says, that are bred particularly for some of their characteristics that make them more difficult to control in that way, but responsible dog ownership was a theme of the summit, and it will be reflected in the written statement that my colleague Lesley Griffiths will put before Members as a result of the summit meeting.

Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Questions now from the party leaders. The leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew R.T. Davies AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. First Minister, on the weekend, the pressures that the ambulance service is facing here in Wales were amplified by three major events, and, in fact, the ambulance service called for an 'extraordinary incident' situation to be declared. In Morriston, in Swansea, 16 ambulances were parked outside the A&E department, and there was a wait of 28 hours. Just outside Llangollen, an elderly gentleman fell over and a neighbour had to perform paramedic duties on that elderly gentleman, and, in the end, the wife of the gentleman had to transfer him to hospital after a four-hour wait. And regrettably, in Caerphilly, a lady waited 22 hours and, sadly and tragically, died in the back of an ambulance. We are at the start of the winter season. What confidence can you give us that the measures of the Welsh Government, in conjunction with the Welsh ambulance service, will make a real difference to ambulance response times here in Wales, and ultimately get the flow through the hospital system so that there isn't that situation that we saw across Wales occurring week in, week out through the winter months?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, let me respond, first of all, to the final point that the leader of the opposition made, because that is at the root of the difficulties that were experienced by the Welsh ambulance trust at the weekend. There were plenty of ambulances on the road this weekend. Staffing levels were good across Wales. In fact, staffing levels in the Swansea bay area were at 102 per cent, as people came in to help out with the difficulties that were being experienced. The problem at Morriston particularly lay in the flow through into the hospital so that people could be handed over from ambulances in good time. Welsh Government officials are discussing with the local board as to how that had become the circumstances and what more can be done to improve them. The Minister will visit Morriston this week, again, to discuss with the board directly how it is tackling the urgent and emergency care challenges that it faces.
When the ambulance trust declares an 'extraordinary incident', it allows them to draw in mutual aid from other parts of the service. That did happen on Sunday and, by Monday, the extraordinary incident was no longer being declared. I wish I could say to the Member that there will be no further extraordinary incidents over this winter, but I'm afraid that would be an over-optimistic statement. There were extraordinary incidents last winter in Wales, in England, in Scotland, and with the pressures that the service is under, despite the enormous efforts that staff make, we have to be realistic and say that when the huge pressures come on, declaring an extraordinary incident in order to mobilise extra help will be one of the techniques that those responsible for managing the service will have to have at their disposal.

Andrew R.T. Davies AC: I'm glad that you've identified the problem. I think we all understand what the problem is through the descriptions that have been given by various senior managers in the Welsh ambulance service. One of the most graphic examples was in the last month recorded—September—when 19,000 hours of operational time with ambulances were lost because ambulances were stuck in hospitals. The response time in September was even lower than it was 12 months ago for red calls, and that in itself was the second lowest on record 12 months ago.
What I'm trying to extract from you, First Minister, today, to give confidence to those who work in the service and do a fantastic job day in, day out, and patients and families who rely on the service, is what extra capacity, what resources on the lessons learned from last winter have been deployed for this winter. I fully accept we will, sadly, see weekends like we've seen this weekend occur again; sadly, that's an inevitability. But those weekends are rare and infrequent. What extra capacity is the Welsh Government—that hopefully your response to me is going to highlight—going to deploy will make sure that they stay a rare and extraordinary incident, rather than a regular incident?

Mark Drakeford AC: The Welsh Government announced an additional £425 million for the health service in-year only last week. There are lessons from previous winters, which the service is always trying to absorb and to put into practice, and planning begins for the winter far, far earlier in the year than now. That involves staffing numbers—there are more people working for the Welsh ambulance service than ever before—and it involves extra capacity in the health service but also out in the community. It's very important to emphasise the fact that much of what can be done to help flow through the system is to discharge people out of the hospital back to their home or back to other places in the community when they are physically fit to do so.
Amongst the figures that were published last week, you will see that the number of people waiting for care in the community went down. That is a good sign of some resilience in our social services departments. The number of people who were seen within the four-hour target inside emergency departments went up in the last month. So, again, there are some signs of resilience in the emergency departments in Wales as well. None of that is to take away from the sustained pressures that the system is facing and will undoubtedly face during this winter.

Andrew R.T. Davies AC: What troubles me about asking these questions today, First Minister, is that it was this time last year that you accused me of having the temerity to come to this Chamber and raise similar incidents relating to the ambulance service, of a gentleman in Merthyr who had stayed on the kitchen floor in his own house because, sadly, the ambulance couldn't come and convey him to the hospital, and also because of the incident I highlighted at Cefn Cribwr, when a rugby player was left on the pitch in torrential rain and going rapidly downhill with hypothermia. Sadly, this is a recurring theme, and we are seeing it time and time again.
I regrettably haven't heard any answers today from you about measures that you will be putting in place to alleviate this pressure going into the busy winter months. Can you confirm today that we have got the solutions, or that the Welsh Government have the solutions in place, and can ultimately support the ambulance service in their hour of need? Because we know Government can act when it needs to: we've seen that with the blanket 20 mph speed limit that's been put across Wales; we've seen it with the proposals to create 36 more politicians. So, Government, when it faces issues it wants to solve, can solve those issues, but when it comes to the ambulance service, regrettably, there are recurring problems happening. Give us the confidence that when our constituents come to us we can give them the assurances that when they dial for an ambulance, that ambulance will come and help them in their hour of need.

Mark Drakeford AC: Here is what the Member can tell those people: he can tell them that there are more people working in the Welsh ambulance service than ever before in the history of devolution. He can tell them that those people who work in the ambulance service are trained to extend their scope, so they can do more and they can do more to help people to stay in their homes rather than being transported to a hospital. He can tell them that there is more funding for the health service in Wales as a result of the very difficult decisions that the Cabinet made. He can tell them that there are new services provided by third sector organisations, again to help people to stay at home or to be released from emergency departments back home as soon as possible. And he can tell them that those people who work every day to sustain our service are always determined to learn the lessons of previous experience and will be applying them in Wales again this year.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Leader of Plaid Cymru, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you, Llywydd. In an interview with Wales Today on the BBC last week, the Minister for health stated that she would outline the following day the cuts that health boards would be expected to make. In the absence of any statement, be that oral or ministerial, can the First Minister give us an update on the details?

Mark Drakeford AC: The update, Llywydd, is that the Minister's still discussing these issues with the health boards. It's the responsibility of the health boards to come forward with the plans, and they will have to come up with those plans, as they do every year. After the discussions, when we're clear about the steps that the health boards will be taking, of course the Minister will come before the Seneddto explain and to provide additional information.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: We need to be told what those expectations are so that we can hold Government to account on its plans, of course.
Last week, the First Minister invited me and Plaid Cymru to come forward with our ideas on how to deal with systemic problems in the NHS. He knows that we have; our recent five-point plan referred specifically to workforce planning, for example, and we've been calling for years for action specifically on bringing down the agency staff bill. The Minister did refer in that interview to spending less on agency staff in order to make savings, and that's good. It's something that the Welsh Government has totally failed to get to grips with in recent years. With nearly 7,000 vacancies in the Welsh NHS, and an agency bill last year hitting a record of £325 million, I'd say that building a sustainable, directly employed workforce has to be a priority.
But a statement in a tv interview referring to agency staffing isn't enough. We need details. And in the absence of detail, people can't be blamed for thinking that statements like that are plucked from thin air. But crucially, does the First Minister agree with me that spending plans not implemented properly or not thought through properly are bound to impact on front-line services? As the head of the British Medical Association in Wales said, efficiency savings on top of efficiency savings have led to an NHS that is inefficient in its delivery of services.

Mark Drakeford AC: I did indeed ask the leader of Plaid Cymru last week for the new ideas that he was calling for.I hadn't realised that he was referring to the five-point plan that he'd published quite some time before. Frankly, if that's the full extent of the new ideas to which he referred, then the cupboard is pretty bare.
As to agency staffing, this was part of the negotiations that were carried out very carefully earlier this year with our nursing colleagues and the trade unions particularly, and there are specific plans in place to make sure that we can reduce the reliance of the health service in Wales on agency staffing. By the way, agency staffing is a very important part of the way in which the health service provides services. I don't want to fall into language that talks about agency staff as though they were some regrettable necessity. They are a very important part of the way in which the service is able to provide for people who rely on it. But we want to redress the balance between reliance on agency staff and reliance on bank staff—banks run by the health service, where the instruction of Ministers has always been to health boards that they are to be as flexible as they can be, to make sure that the working lives of people are matched by the working requirements of the health service, and that artificial barriers of people willing to work in that more flexible way should be dismantled rather than erected.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I think the First Minister is making a rather poor excuse for the failure of the Welsh Government to get to grips with the scale of agency staff use within the NHS, because it’s the scale that we referred to. He blames us for coming back time and time again demanding that the Welsh Government takes action on some fundamental issues that need dealing with. If the Welsh Government got to grips with these issues, I wouldn’t need to be coming back here, as health spokesman and now as leader, asking for action. It’s been frustrating calling for action on things that, had they been done earlier, could have made a real difference.
The need to get staffing right is a long-term issue. Another long-term problem is the unsustainability of the care sector. If the spend on agency staff is an example of private companies stepping in to make profit because of Labour mismanagement, isn’t that exactly what’s driven the decision now by the Labour Rhondda Cynon Taf council—to the anger of unions and local residents—to outsource all its long-term homecare?

Mark Drakeford AC: If solutions were as easy as speeches, we’d all be a lot better off. Indeed, the leader of Plaid Cymru is correct: he spends his time calling for things for other people to do. One day maybe he’ll be in a position to do some of those things himself.
As far as RCT is concerned, I’m happy to refer him to what the council itself has said. The council is not privatising all homecare services in Rhondda Cynon Taf; 90 per cent of long-term care in the council is already provided by the independent sector, and these proposals will transfer the remaining 10 per cent to the independent sector to ensure a more efficient service delivery to residents. The remaining services will remain directly provided by the local authority. I’ve no doubt that the local authority will continue to be in discussions with its trade unions and with others who are interested in the care sector to make sure that, at a time when all public service budgets are under enormous pressure, they are able to go on making decisions that focus on the care of those individuals who rely on the service, and ensure that they are at the forefront of the way in which those decisions are made.

Public Transport

Sioned Williams AS: 4. How does the Welsh Government ensure that people in South Wales West are provided with public transport? OQ60170

Mark Drakeford AC: The Welsh Government continues to provide high levels of public subsidy to support public transport. The best way to ensure continued provision of such services is to use them.

Sioned Williams AS: Diolch, Brif Weinidog. I welcome investment into public transport. However, it’s disappointing to see that no additional investment to protect bus routes was included in the finance Minister’s recent statement, despite three quarters of public transport journeys taking place by bus rather than train. Brif Weinidog, I have heard of people in my region being forced to leave their jobs because of bus cuts. From next week, for example, anyone living between Ystradgynlais and Pontardawe will not be able to get a bus that gets to Swansea by 9 a.m.. When I’ve asked about this many times over the last months, I’ve been told no additional money was available to help protect vital routes and services. It seems, however, that now it’s a different story for trains. Aaron Hill, director of Confederation of Passenger Transport Cymru, said that there was a real inequity in the levels of funding, with disproportionate levels going into rail compared to bus. I welcome the ambitions of the Government to reregulate bus services, but those ambitions are years off being fully realised. Can I therefore ask, Brif Weinidog, in light of additional money being found for rail services, and up to a quarter of bus services at risk of soon being lost, do you agree that there's inequity in the levels of funding between bus and rail, and what's your response to my constituents who feel the Government is not supporting their transport needs?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I remember very well that during the passage of the budget for this year, Plaid Cymru identified three priorities that they wished to see reflected in that budget. One of those was additional investment in bus services, and £46 million was identified at that stage, in order to bridge between the support that bus services have now and the support that will be needed once the bus Bill is before you and we are able to amend the basis on which bus services are provided in Wales today. So, that £46 million had already been announced. There is still a challenge in the bus industry, of course there is, and the challenge is patronage—the point I made in my original answer. The reason that both rail and bus services face the challenges they have today is that passenger numbers have not recovered to where they were before the pandemic, and therefore the fare box in buses particularly is not where it was then. Trains have recovered to where they were before the pandemic hit us, but they have lost out on the growth that would have happened in the years in-between. So, when you're talking about the projections for rail services, the fare box is not back to where it would have been anticipated had the pandemic not had that impact.
So, there is additional money for buses, and there is additional money for trains, and, actually, I don't think it is a sensible approach to pit the one against the other. Had we cut rail services, I have no doubt the Member would be telling us today of constituents who could not get to work because rail services weren't running. We found money for buses and we found money for trains, and at a time when there is money for precious little, I think that is a real illustration of the priority that we have attached to public services and public transport services in particular.

Altaf Hussain AS: First Minister, one of your key policies is to encourage modal shift, but how can we get people to abandon their cars if the alternative is not there? With bus cuts across my region, and the most unreliable trains in the UK, more and more people are abandoning public transport, not the other way around. First Minister, unless and until we have reliable alternatives, people will have no choice but to carry on using private vehicles. Will you now abandon your stick approach and provide proper alternatives to the car, especially for those unable to walk or cycle?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I've already set out the additional investment that the Welsh Government is making in public transport, and beyond that we have a series of other funds that also support the transition that we have to see, away from the ways we have done things in the past, to the way that things will have to be in the future. In Swansea alone, Llywydd, we are providing £7.6 million—£7.6 million—over two years through the local transport fund, which will encourage active travel. It will provide further investments in both bus and train facilities, and in that way we move towards our ambition, which is to make sure that there are convenient, reliable services that people are able to use, in order not to have to use their cars.

Digital Inclusion

Samuel Kurtz AS: 5. What action is the Welsh Government taking to improve digital inclusion in Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire? OQ60175

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, our digital inclusion and health programme, Digital Communities Wales, supports organisations across all communities and sectors to help people maximise the opportunities of digital. Through ensuring that our citizens are digitally confident and capable, we will be able fully to realise the benefits of our investment across sectors in digital services.

Samuel Kurtz AS: Well, Prif Weinidog, it's pretty safe to say that the roll-out of the Habitat Wales scheme has been so far a shambles. Habitat land has been mapped using data that is 30 years old. The Welsh Government, in error, has omitted the land that is mapped as habitat in Glastir Entry from expressions of interest. And in an effort to correct the Welsh Government's own mistakes, farmers can remove areas incorrectly mapped as habitat only in exceptional circumstances. As a result of these major mapping errors, the scheme is getting extremely complicated and stressful for farmers and their advisers, all of whom require digital competence and skills to be able to apply via Rural Payments Wales. While visiting a Glastir organic farm in my constituency, who had undertaken a Farming Connect sponsored habitat survey of their whole farm, they told me that this up-to-date accurate data can't be inputted into the Habitat Wales scheme via RPW. So, Prif Weinidog, can I urge you and the Welsh Government to allow farmers to digitally input the data, to digitally map their own habitats online, so that they can at least try and make a success of what is so far a failing scheme? Diolch, Llywydd.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I don't agree with the Member that it is a failing scheme. It's had over 500 applications, and I don't the scheme application time is—. If it was a failing scheme, why are 500, as a minimum, farmers applying for it? That doesn't seem to me to be a very fair definition of failure, and it is a scheme that the Welsh Government has taken forward because European funding, which was used for Glastir, is no longer available to farmers in Wales—a policy that his party were only too keen to support.
The mapping issue that the Member mentioned has been resolved, but there is help through Farming Connect for farmers who find the digital access to the scheme a challenge for them. I think that farmers in Wales will recognise that even when money that was available to them previously is no longer available—a policy that his party, of course, urged on people here in Wales—now that they face the consequences of their policy provision, it's the Welsh Government that has stepped in to make money available to them.

Lithium-ion Battery Farms

Ken Skates AC: 6. Will the First Minister make a statement on the planning regime for large-scale lithium-ion battery farms in Wales? OQ60158

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, proposals for stand-alone battery storage schemes are determined by the local planning authority. Proposals associated with large renewable energy schemes can be determined through the development of national significance process, and that, then, lies with the Welsh Government.

Ken Skates AC: Thank you for that answer, First Minister. You may be aware that there are proposals to construct the United Kingdom’s largest lithium-ion battery facility right on the border of the villages of Rhostyllen, Rhos and Bersham in Clwyd South. Now, a lot of the technology in these facilities is relatively novel and new, and there have been instances of similar facilities catching fire around the world, including nearby in Liverpool, where the fire took more than two days to extinguish. What safeguards are being considered by the Welsh Government to protect against fire and toxic leakage from such facilities? And would you agree that where they are positioned is vitally important, and they shouldn't be positioned too close to dwellings or to rivers?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I thank Ken Skates for that further question, and indeed I am aware of the possible application for that factory facility, and of concerns that are expressed in the Member's own constituency. The first safeguard has to be early engagement with communities and with consultees by those bringing forward the planning application at the pre-application stage and then during the application process, and that's an obligation on those making the proposal to make sure that that engagement takes place. Then there are the safeguards that the planning system itself provides, the consenting process, which has to take into account potential environmental and health and safety impacts of any development. And in all of that, the proximity of proposals to dwellings and to water is a material consideration for the planning authority to take when it comes to assess the application that is in front of it. Where there is a major application, and we will have to wait to see the detail of any proposed application—. Where there is a major application, then additional consents are required to control major accident hazards, to protect human safety and to minimise environmental impacts. So, I would say to the Member and to his constituents that there are those three levels of safeguards that could be accessed by them—the early engagement at the pre-consultation, pre-application stage, the safeguards that lie in the planning process itself, and then, dependent upon the scale of any application, those additional consents required should the application be of the sort of scale that has sometimes been reported.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: First Minister, we know that our planning system in Wales is rather overwhelmed, but it is imperative that any greening initiative isn't held back, but all necessary precautions are put in place. Now, today there is around 4 GW of electricity storage operational in Great Britain made up of 3 GW of pumped hydro storage and 1 GW of newer, lithium-ion battery storage that has been built since 2017. Lithium-ion battery storage has amazing potential. It typically operates at durations of 30 minutes to four hours, and has significantly reduced in cost—around 90 per cent since 2010. It can provide a rapid response to changes in system needs. However, we do know from global examples that there is a potential fire risk. A US database listing fires at battery energy storage systems found 63 examples worldwide since 2011. So, what steps are you taking as a Government to ensure that the potential risk posed by these large battery farms are properly understood, properly investigated, and that the planning process can go ahead, but with all those precautions in mind? Diolch.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, the renewable energy of the future, including hydrogen and other forms of renewable energy, will require a capacity to store the energy that is produced in that way, so that its use can be then smoothed across the many demands that happen over a 24-hour period. And when there are new technologies being deployed, it is inevitable that you have to have a closer scrutiny of them in case there are any unintended consequences from the deployment of those new technologies. That will certainly be in the minds of those responsible for considering any planning applications for lithium-ion battery facilities here in Wales. And in my answer to Ken Skates, I set out the different safeguards that there will be there, and that need to be there, for the reason that the Member has outlined.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Question 7, by Laura Anne Jones, has been withdrawn. Question 8—Alun Davies.

Question 7 [OQ60169] not asked.

Support for Businesses

Alun Davies AC: 8. Will the First Minister make a statement on Welsh Government support for businesses in Blaenau Gwent? OQ60162

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, completion of the A465, the Heads of the Valleys road, will support businesses across Blaenau Gwent. In the meantime, as the Member noted on the floor of the Senedd last week, 12 different Blaenau Gwent companies have benefited from the Welsh Government’s business productivity enhancement programme.

Alun Davies AC: The First Minister pre-empts my question. I'm grateful to him and his researchers. [Laughter.] But we're very grateful for the investment from the productivity enhancement fund, and the 12 businesses really are benefiting greatly from it. But the First Minister is, of course, right about the success of the A465 dualling project. Since the Welsh Government decided to invest in dualling the Heads of the Valleys road, we've seen a significant increase in business activity and a significant uptake in business enquiries to Blaenau Gwent. [Interruption.] The Tories are not interested, but I think everybody else is. And what we're seeing now, First Minister, is actually a shortage of business space, a shortage of spaces of industrial estates and a shortage of business units for those businesses that want to grow in Blaenau Gwent, relocate in Blaenau Gwent, but take advantage of the investment that the Welsh Government is making in the economy of Blaenau Gwent.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, the continuous work on the Heads of the Valleys road has been sustained for 15 years. What a contrast between our determination to see through that project over successive Senedd terms compared to the utter fiasco of decision making where the high speed 2 line is concerned. This is a Government that has, despite the many attacks on it by opposition parties, been determined to complete the dualling of the A465, for all the advantages that it brings. And as I've heard the Member say in this Chamber previously, this is not a project about a road, it's a project about the economic opportunities that come with it in the way that he outlined. Now, I've been able, Llywydd, to go with the Member for Blaenau Gwent to a number of the industrial estates that have benefited from Welsh Government investment. And we will go on making sure that the economic opportunities that have been realised as a result of Welsh Government investment will be realised in Blaenau Gwent as well by following up on the issues that the Member has raised, by continuing to discuss with those businesses who now wish to invest in that area and to make sure that the opportunities that come with our ability—our ability, so very different to what we see elsewhere—to sustain investment over the long term will have the long-term benefits that flow from it.

The Economy of Mid Wales

James Evans AS: 9. What steps is the Government taking to grow the economy of mid Wales? OQ60155

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, steps taken to grow the economy of mid Wales have contributed to a 41 per cent growth in average weekly earnings for adults in full-time work in the area, at a time when wages growth across the UK has stood at only 28 per cent.

James Evans AS: I'd like to thank the First Minister for your answer, and, on the weekend, it was the Powys business awards, and I'm sure you'd like to join me in congratulating all those businesses who entered in those awards, highlighting the sheer breadth of what we have to offer in Powys.
The small businesses that I speak to, First Minister, share the same challenges that they do in Blaenau Gwent around workshops and availability for businesses to start. But another issue that they find as well is around skills, and the lack of skills that we do have in mid Wales. So, I'd be interested to know what work the Welsh Government is doing to grow the skills in mid Wales to enable those businesses to grow and thrive.

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for that question, and I do indeed share in his congratulations to all those who were winners at the Powys business awards. Powys is full of fantastic businesses and people who invest enormously their own time and their own resources in making a success of those businesses. The mid Wales growth deal is one of the ways in which skills for the future can be further invested in that part of Wales. It was very good to see Neath Port Talbot College in Brecon—a physical presence there now. I met some students there earlier in the year. The work that the growth deal will invest will go alongside all of that to improve the supply of skills into industry, to make sure that there is—if the project comes to full fruition—an advanced manufacturing campus in mid Wales, to do exactly the things that James Evans has outlined this afternoon.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Finally, question 10, Jenny Rathbone.

The Prison Service

Jenny Rathbone AC: 10. Will the First Minister provide an update on the state of the prison service in Wales? OQ60176

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, prisons in Wales are primarily the responsibility of the UK Government. There are currently acute population pressures in the prison estate. It is the view of His Majesty's Prison and Probation Service that prisons in Wales are operating effectively, despite these wider pressures.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Well, that's good to know, but we know, from many inspection reports, that the prison estate is full and completely incapable of carrying out its task of both rehabilitating people as well as punishing them. The women's justice blueprint has identified that there are better outcomes for women who serve short sentences in the community and a lot less recidivism. What discussions, then, has the Welsh Government had with the Ministry of Justice on extending that policy to anyone who's received a short prison sentence of less than a year, to serve them in the community, which will be both cheaper and deliver a better outcome?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I welcome some of the proposals put forward by the latest Secretary of State at the Ministry of Justice, and we will certainly be engaged with them to see how those proposals would have an impact here in Wales.
In Wales, we're in a position to lead some of those debates. The Minister for Social Justice will be making a statement on the floor of the Senedd this afternoon on the criminal justice blueprints—the blueprints in youth justice and in women offenders, which have genuinely broken new ground and which can demonstrate to the rest of the United Kingdom ways in which a focus on the prevention of offending and rehabilitation of people who find themselves caught up in the criminal justice system, how that can work to the benefit of everybody, rather than a single-minded focus on dealing with the consequences of offending when everything has gone wrong. And across the Welsh Government, we are determined to go on playing our part in that. The Minister for Education and the Welsh Language will be visiting the prison estate later this week to look at the way in which education services provided by the Welsh Government can make their contribution to a genuinely rehabilitative approach. If the latest twist and turn in the Ministry of Justice's approach to all of this turns out to be focused in that way, they'll find a willing partner here in Wales.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I thank the First Minister.

2. Business Statement and Announcement

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The next item will be the business statement and announcement, and I call on the Trefnydd to make that statement—Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch, Llywydd. There is one change to this week's business. The statement on water quality has been postponed until 12 December. Draft business for the next three weeks is set out on the business statement and announcement, which can be found amongst the meeting papers available to Members electronically.

Paul Davies AC: Trefnydd, you will have seen the recent news that Welsh Water has admitted illegally spilling untreated sewage at its treatment plants, and in some cases, like in Cardigan, which unfortunately has an impact on my constituency, that practice has been happening for at least 10 years or even more. I'm sure you will agree with me that this is totally unacceptable, and that action needs to be taken as a matter of urgency. It's therefore deeply disappointing that a statement from the Minister for Climate Change has been postponed from today, and will now only take place at the end of the year. This is a huge problem and the Welsh Government should be prioritising this given these damning reports, because inadequate water quality can have an enormous impact on human health, on wildlife and on the wider environment. Therefore, can I request that the Welsh Government bring forward a statement as soon as possible on this matter, so that the people of Wales don't have to wait until the end of the year to understand what the Welsh Government is doing to tackle this unacceptable situation?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Welsh Government absolutely expects our water companies here in Wales to work much harder to deliver excellent services to our customers across all areas of operation, and the Minister for Climate Change did issue our strategic priorities and objectives statement to Ofwat in 2022, absolutely making clear her expectations from our water companies. There will be a statement on 12 December. That will follow the next water quality summit that we're holding across Government, so that's why the statement will be brought forward on 12 December.

Delyth Jewell AC: There are a number of former industrial sites in the region that I represent that have been contaminated by toxic waste and are in dire need of cleaning up. There are ongoing risks to the public from some of these sites. I'd ask for a statement on how that clean-up operation could be undertaken urgently, with an emphasis on the role of Natural Resources Wales and the process, please. There's a lot of concern about pollution at the former Tŷ Llwyd quarry site in Caerphilly county borough. Many people have contacted me about this issue, as well as my colleague Peredur. We're aware of significant concerns surrounding several other sites across the borough, where it's feared chemicals may have been dumped. Now, many of these sites appear to be leaking chemicals into the surrounding land, into local streams and rivers, especially at times of heavy rain, and we all know that this will become more of an issue with changing weather patterns and the result of climate change. Local councillors have, I know, written to the First Minister this week outlining their concerns, but this isn't just a local issue. I think that this could be something that would be replicated across the Valleys, so I'd welcome a statement, please, setting out how the contamination of former industrial sites can be tackled nationally.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. You do raise a very important issue that, as you say, is of concern. I am aware of the letter to which you referred, and I understand the First Minister and the Minister for Climate Change will be responding in due course.

Paul Davies took the Chair.

Hefin David AC: In June, I met with two parents of autistic young people, both of whom have serious concerns about the use of sectioning and the deprivation of liberty safeguards regarding their children, who are now in adulthood. They are concerned this could be happening across Wales and therefore there could be a broader issue, and, unfortunately, our ability to understand the extent of this problem and monitor it is restricted by the lack of available up-to-date data, which is not held centrally, and they are concerned that this lack of information could mean that we fall behind England as a result. The families feel strongly there could be widespread incidences across Wales of people being deprived of their liberty in such a way, and I'm very grateful to Mark Isherwood MS, who has met with the families recently in his capacity as chair of the Senedd cross-party autism group, and we'll be writing a detailed letter to the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being about this particular issue. I was wondering in the meantime could the Welsh Government come forward with a statement setting out what action it will be taking to address these really concerning issues.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, and I'm pleased to hear you will be writing to the Deputy Minister. I think also it would be worth while copying in the other health Deputy Minister, to ensure that we have that cross-government approach.

Samuel Kurtz AS: The Habitat Wales scheme has been now announced earlier this summer, but a week ago the finance Minister provided an update on the Welsh Government's financial position, announcing cuts to the rural affairs budget. So, for our Welsh food and farming industry, this comes at a time when there’s already so much hanging in the balance. Having spoken with farmers both across my constituency and across the country, it’s clear that the development process of the Habitat Wales scheme so far has been a bit of a mess, as I alluded to earlier, with uncertainty already mounting around what the future will look like for Welsh agriculture. If Welsh Government can’t get the Habitat Wales scheme right, well how on earth will they manage to get the sustainable farming scheme right?
So, with that scheme being announced on 21 July during recess via a written statement, in that statement it stated that the budget for the interim scheme would be announced before the application window opened on 29 September, yet no indication of a budget has been given. This will have a knock-on effect for the future of farming and food in Wales, and the delivery of the Welsh Government’s own environmental targets. I would therefore like to call for a statement from the Minister for rural affairs on the Habitat Wales scheme as a matter of urgency to confirm what the budget for the scheme will be. Diolch.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, I won't be bringing forward a statement. As you say, we have brought forward the Habitat Wales scheme. I disagree with your analysis of it. We've already had many hundreds of applications, as the First Minister told you in answer to your question to him. We worked very closely with our stakeholders to bring forward this scheme very, very quickly, because, as you know, Glastir funding is coming to an end in December this year, due to us leaving the European Union.
I was asked to bring forward an interim agriculture environment scheme ahead of the SFS coming in in 2025. That is exactly what I've done. You are now criticising that. There were some issues around the mapping, which as—. If you'd like to listen I will answer your question. We dealt with the issues around mapping because, unfortunately, they did happen, but we have dealt with those. You'll be very, very aware that every portfolio has had to cut its in-year budget. That's a really difficult thing to do in-year, but every budget has had to do that in order to be able to address the £900 million deficit we've seen in our budget since we had the comprehensive spending review.

Luke Fletcher AS: Trefnydd, I'd like to request a written statement from Welsh Government about the support available for trustees managing historic buildings and assets of community value. Resolven Miners Welfare hall in Neath Port Talbot is in crisis as trustees face growing liabilities for the building, which is at present unoccupied. Now, due to the complex nature of the building, it has been difficult for the trustees to insure it each year, and each year new challenges present themselves. Now, money is always found to preserve stately homes and support their preservation; more importantly, we need to find money to preserve working-class history.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I think it is really important that we address any issues around such buildings. I'm not aware of the specific building that you refer to. I would advise you to write to—I'm guessing it would be Dawn Bowden, in her Deputy Minister role, to see if she can help you with that.

Jayne Bryant AC: Trefnydd, can I request a statement from the Minister for Climate Change on how Wales can become a sustainable fashion nation? Recently, I sponsored an event in the Senedd with Sustainable Clothing and Textiles Cymru, who are a new coalition of groups, and members of Sustainable Clothing and Textiles Cymru talked about their latest report of key recommendations outlining how Wales can become that sustainable fashion nation. I'm sure other Members that took the time to go along to the event were just as fascinated as I was to learn about the plastic microfibres that are washed off from synthetic clothing, and they're estimated to make up around 35 per cent of the entire plastic pollution in our seas and ocean. Will you also join with me in paying tribute to my constituent, Sara Crerar, who helped set up Jean Genies with Marion Cheung—a creative arts session about the harmful effects of fast fashion, especially denim? Sadly, Sara recently passed away before the project was completed.
So, Trefnydd, I'd welcome an update from the Welsh Government on what they're doing to combat the adverse climate impacts of the fast fashion industry, and how we can strive to be a sustainable fashion nation.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you very much. I'm sorry I missed the event, because it does sound fascinating. And who would think that 35 per cent, as you say, of plastic microfibres come from clothing. So, when we talk about sustainability, it's absolutely right that we cover all aspects of our lives, and, obviously, sustainable clothing and textiles. And I absolutely join you in paying tribute to your constituents.

Altaf Hussain AS: Trefnydd, I would like to request a statement from the Minister for health on the subject of cosmetic procedures such as Botox and lip fillers. The UK Parliament has banned such procedures being given to under-18s. However, no such ban applies to Wales. Not only are our young people at risk, but so are the scores of English teenagers crossing the border for such treatments. Wales was the first to ban teenagers from getting intimate piercings and tattoos, yet we still allow unlicensed and unregulated people, who are often untrained, to inject the world's deadliest toxin, or some unregulated concoctions, into the faces of our young people.
I would therefore ask what the Welsh Government will do to prevent teenagers getting such treatments, as well as indicate whether you intend to regulate such treatments for the wider population. Diolch yn fawr.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you very much for raising that. I think it is a very important point, and I wasn't aware of what you've just told the Chamber. As you said, Wales was the first country—we really led the way on banning intimate piercings. I think I was actually the health Minister at the time of that, and I do think we take a lead in public health.
I will certainly ask the Minister for Health and Social Services to look at this, and to write to you to see what action could be taken, because, as you say, we don't want to become the country where everybody comes to if they've been banned in England. But I will make sure the Minister for Health and Social Services writes to you, and, Chair, puts a letter in the Library.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Everyone will have been horrified by the evil actions of Hamas on 7 October, with some 1,400 people killed in Israel. There is no justification for these horrific acts. There is no justification either for denying water, electricity, fuel, medicine and other essentials to 2 million people on the Gaza strip—with half of the population under the age 18—punishing children and other innocents. Hospitals there are now running out of essential medicines and materials. It's estimated that 5,000 Palestinians have now been killed and missiles are still falling in southern Gaza, where people are being encouraged to move.
I understand that the Government here secured humanitarian aid for Palestine in previous conflicts. So, can we have an urgent statement from Government, setting out what humanitarian support the Government can provide to the people of Gaza, and an assurance that the Government here is using all of its powers in order to call for a ceasefire in that part of the world as a matter of urgency?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Well, I can assure you that Welsh Government is taking the steps to which you refer. I know both the First Minister and the Minister for Social Justice have really reached out to our faith groups here to see what more we can do to support them. Obviously, international affairs is not a devolved matter, but I'm sure we all watch with absolute horror as these scenes unfold before us on our television screens every evening.

Jack Sargeant AC: Minister, over the weekend, storm Babet caused havoc in Sandycroft, Mancot, Broughton, Penyffordd and the surrounding communities in my constituency. I'm seeking a Welsh Government statement on the impact of the flooding in these communities, and also the assistance from officials in the ministry of climate change to set up an expert-led working group to deliver the change needed to protect these communities from suffering in such future events. Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Well, certainly, after very heavy rainfall on Friday and into Saturday, which was linked to storm Babet, we had several flood warnings and, unfortunately, several areas—some in your own constituency, some in my constituency, and in other parts of Wales—did, unfortunately, suffer flooding. And we know how devastating the impacts of flooding can be, not just on homes, but also on individuals and their lives. So, the Minister for Climate Change will be happy to bring forward a written statement.

Jane Dodds AS: Good afternoon, Minister. I wonder if I could ask for two statements, please. The first is from the Minister for Finance and Local Government on the funding situation for public toilets operated by town and community councils. Powys is a large, rural area and we welcome visitors and people travelling through. I became aware of a phrase I'd never heard of before, from the Older People's Commissioner for Wales, called 'loo leash', which is that it dissuades senior people from leaving home because they can't, potentially, access a toilet, and some even risking dehydration. She found that almost two thirds of those over 60 struggled to find public toilets. So, I would therefore welcome a statement clarifying the Welsh Government's position on funding for community toilets. I've got an issue in Powys, where Rhayader Town Council operates three toilets on the A470, and have real funding challenges.
My second statement is from the Deputy Minister for Social Services. We had really concerning figures released today, after research by the BBC on children's services, where councils are reporting significant increases in the number of safeguarding referrals, and councils are facing severe challenges, including significant vacancy rates. So, I'd therefore welcome a statement from the Deputy Minister, setting out how the Welsh Government is responding to these concerns and pressures. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you very much. I'll refer to your second issue. I think the Deputy Minister will want to put very clearly on record her thanks for the work that is undertaken by front-line practitioners who work with our families, and the very significant challenges they face. I know the Deputy Minister met recently with the Welsh Local Government Association social care cabinet members to hear about their concerns about the direct impact of pressures on the services. She also works very closely with local authorities, and has established a robust reporting pathway, to ensure that she is appraised of all the pressures on social services and children's services, and to continue to support local authorities as they work with children and their families.
I think the first point you raised is very pertinent. As you say, it is something—. I'd not heard that 'loo leash' before, but you can absolutely understand the meaning behind it. As you probably do know, local authorities are required legally to produce local toilet strategies, and, in doing so, they really should take every opportunity to talk to members of the public, to see what they need, in order to be able to access local toilets when they do go out, really listen to their concerns as well, and see what potential solutions can be brought forward. I know guidance has been issued to local authorities, to highlight that accessible toilets are more important for those with some health conditions also.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Trefnydd, I'm just a little bit surprised that we've not had a statement from the Minister for the environment and climate change, considering that large parts of Wales were affected by storm Babet. My colleague Jack Sargeant there, I know other colleagues on these benches, and other Members here, have been so badly affected in their constituencies. What I witnessed over the weekend was, well, shocking, really, on Friday in particular. There was no joined-up plan. We've often heard here in this Chamber that this plan will kick into place, but there was the fire service, people couldn't get through for sandbags, or they were being told there were sandbags available, and then told, 'No, we don't provide them any more'. People were sick, being carried out of their homes; other houses were evacuated. It really was a chaotic scene. Now, for us in Llandudno, of course, this brought back horrible memories of 1993, when the waters met across the whole bay—we are very low lying in terms of sea level. So, I would endorse the call by Jack Sargeant that we have an immediate flooding statement from the Minister on how this kind of situation must be avoided again. There has to be a plan in place, and these emergency services need to know what they're doing at any particular time, and so that we, as elected Members, can actually communicate with our residents. Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Well, as I said, the Minister for Climate Change will be bringing forward a written statement.

Paul Davies AC: And, finally, Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood AC: Diolch. Well, I call for two statements from the health Minister: the first regarding how the Welsh Government is ensuring Welsh health boards are held accountable for prioritising the implementation of the rare diseases action plan for Wales, as set out in Welsh health circular 2022/017. Yesterday, 23 October, was International XLH Awareness Day. X-linked hypophosphataemia, XLH, is a rare, lifelong metabolic bone disease that presents the person living with the condition with a multitude of challenges on a daily basis. I attended a round-table event hosted here by Mike Hedges a few weeks ago, which highlighted that the care for adults with XLH needs to be improved, as it does for many people living with rare conditions. Key challenges raised included a lack of care co-ordination, a lack of understanding of the condition, as well as challenges in accessing specialist treatment and care. It is essential for this group of patients and families, and others affected by rare conditions, that the commitments in the action plan are properly prioritised and equally delivered right across Wales, and I call for a statement accordingly.
Finally, I also call for a statement from the health Minister on the optimal clinical pathway for people affected by polio in Wales. Today is World Polio Day 2023, with supporters campaigning to tell global partners, donors and polio-affected country Governments that eradication is possible and urgently needed. As a patron of the British Polio Fellowship, I sponsored and spoke at June's launch event in the Senedd of the optimal clinical pathway for people affected by polio, which sets out what good treatment, care and support looks like for polio survivors across the UK. I subsequently called for a statement by the health Minister, detailing how she will engage with the British Polio Fellowship regarding implementation of the pathway and the need to reduce variation in care for polio survivors living in Wales, and I repeat that call for a statement today on World Polio Day 2023.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you very much. So, in relation to the rare diseases action plan, I am not aware of any guidance that would need updating with health boards, but I will certainly ask the health Minister to have a look to see if that is, indeed, the case.
And, in relation to polio, I wasn't aware of it being an awareness day today. I think it is really important, because although we don't hear about it very often, I think there are many people who are still living with the aftermath of polio. So, again, if the health Minister believes that any guidance needs updating, I will ask her to do so.

Paul Davies AC: I thank the Trefnydd.

3. Statement by the Minister for Climate Change: Water Quality

Paul Davies AC: Item 3 has been postponed.

4. Statement by the Minister for Social Justice and Chief Whip: Basic Income for Care Leavers in Wales Pilot

Paul Davies AC: We'll move on, therefore, to item 4, which is a statement by the Minister for Social Justice. And I call on the Minister to make the statement, Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, acting Presiding Officer. It has been over 12 months since we launched our basic income for care leavers in Wales pilot. And the pilot offered young people leaving care and turning 18 between 1 July 2022 and 30 June 2023 the opportunity to receive a monthly income of £1,600 for a period of two years, which equates to £1,280 a month after tax. And, since the launch of the pilot, there has been widespread interest in how it is progressing and the impact on young people’s lives. Today, I am pleased to provide you with an update on the pilot and further information about the evaluation approach. I will also provide an update on our plans for supporting the young people as their payments come to an end, and they transition and move on from the pilot.
During the 12-month enrolment period, which formally ended on 30 June 2023, 635 young people leaving care in Wales joined the pilot and started receiving their basic income payments. This represents about 97 per cent of those who were eligible for the pilot. It is very good to have so many young people take up this opportunity, and I'm extremely pleased that the uptake rate is higher than that of other opt-in basic income schemes worldwide.How well the pilot is progressing to date reflects the strength of our collaborative approach with local authority leaving care teams, Voices from Care Cymru, Citizens Advice Cymru, carers, families and friends,and many other advocacy groups and service providers. I’d like to put on record my thanks to all those involved for their input and support for this project.
The basic income pilot for care leavers in Wales is an ambitious and groundbreaking policy, and it is essential that the evaluation matches this ambition by providing a rigorous and wide-ranging assessment of its impact. The aim of our pilot is to identify and test the benefits of providing this form of support to these young care leavers.
Throughout the pilot, I have met with many of the young people who are participating to find out how they are getting on. Last week, I met with someone on the scheme in Abersytwyth, and tomorrow and Thursday I will be meeting more young people in Cardiff and Conwy as part of a number of informal events we are holding across Wales. And I’ve been pleased to sit down and hear about the difference this money is making to their lives not only in the present, but also in terms of how they are thinking about their future. For example, some of the young people I have spoken to have talked about it allowing them to save to support themselves for the future, and explore funding further qualifications that could boost their job and career prospects, as well as help meet their current living costs and expenses.
Within this pilot, there are over 600 individuals, with their own unique stories, each taking different paths in their lives. As such, the effects of the pilot on the young people are likely to be diverse, with some outcomes more immediate and obvious, while others may be more gradual. We’ve commissioned an expert team, led by the Children’s Social Care Research and Development Centre at Cardiff University, to lead the wide-ranging evaluation of the pilot. This multidisciplinary team of world experts in complex evaluation, basic income, social care and social security interventions will assess how the pilot was experienced and delivered, as well as the costs and benefits to wider society. The evaluation team will produce a series of thematic reports to be published over the course of the four-year research programme. We intend to publish the first report of this series in early 2024. This initial report will present the potential outcomes of this pilot, drawing upon both international basic income evidence and theory as well as the Welsh Government aspirations for the pilot. The report will also outline how this pilot has been implemented to date, drawing on the views of professionals involved in its delivery. It will further build on the data we published in September this year, providing a deeper understanding of the cohort of young care leavers. This report will help build an understanding of how the pilot has been experienced by young people and those involved in its delivery. Given that the impact of the pilot in many areas of life will take years to be realised, we also have to track the impact of the pilot for many years to come.
Alongside the evaluation, we are focused on developing plans for supporting this cohort of young people as they begin to transition and move on from the pilot next year. How we positively end the pilot for the participants has been a key consideration throughout this process, and we have been keen that practitioners engage with young people about the end of the pilot at every stage. The first cohort of the basic income recipients will see their payments ending from July 2024, and we are working closely with key delivery partners and the recipients themselves on how best to support them through this transition.As care leavers, these young people already have pathways in place that are intended to support them as they transition out of care. We’ve been working with our partners to build on those existing plans and provide guidance and checklists to make sure that the young people are as prepared as they possibly can be.A key part of the support we are providing is the independent financial advice that all young people on the scheme can access through Citizens Advice Cymru, as part of our single advice fund.
Of course, this isn’t a one-size-fits-all approach. As highlighted earlier, there are over 600 young people on the pilot, and that means over 600 different lives, experiences and circumstances. As such, a person-centred approach must be at the heart of the support for young people on the pilot, and we rely on the excellent work of our local authority partners and their young persons advisers to support people through this transition. I will be pleased to keep Members updated on progress and findings as we continue to proudly deliver this groundbreaking programme for government commitment. Diolch.

Joel James AS: Thank you, Minister, for your statement today. I'm pleased to hear that so many care leavers have taken the opportunity to engage with the trial and receive potentially life-changing sums of money, and I really do hope that enables them to break many of the destructive cycles that care leavers unfortunately experience. Picking up on some of the aspects of the trial, 635 care leavers have joined the scheme, which is considerably more than the 500 originally budgeted for. The trial will now go around £5 million over budget, and this is not including the additional funding that you promised for those charities and organisations that are supporting care leavers with guidance. Given that you have recently announced a £7 million cut to your budget, there's considerable pressure on delivering more for less. Therefore, what specific outcomes of the trial are you looking at to determine whether or not a basic income is the best value for money in terms of helping care leavers?
You have stated previously, Minister, and I quote, that,
'This pilot, we hope, will enable us to test some of the claims being made for universal basic income.'
Given that the trial is now fully up and running and we are almost halfway through, I am keen to know what specific claims regarding UBI are being tested. As you know, I have previously expressed my concern in this Chamber, and continue to do so, that care leavers are a particularly vulnerable group whose specific needs do not necessarily reflect the wider population, and they were chosen deliberately to stifle opposition to these proposals. Without a clear set of outcomes to be measured related to UBI, this trial is nothing more than a measurement of targeted, financial intervention to a specific group, which is exactly the same as what is offered by existing welfare support.
Minister, if the trial was found to be a success and you decide that basic income was to be rolled out to all care leavers at the current level on a permanent basis, whereby no care leaver ever stopped receiving basic income, and 500 new care leavers were added to the scheme every year, within 10 years the scheme would cost £528 million, without adjusting for inflation, to help just 5,000 people. I think it is fair to say that we're all agreed here that it would not be financially proper to spend such large amounts of public money, especially when budgets are being cut elsewhere, trialling a scheme purely for its academic findings and without planning for a long-term implementation. Surely you wouldn't start a trial involving a vulnerable section of society without the intention of implementing it? So, with this in mind, what plans are you considering to fund the basic income for care leavers on a long-term basis?
Moving forward, as the Minister may be aware, a report from the Prince's Trust in 2017 found that care leavers struggled with educational attainment, with 87 per cent of care leavers having less than five GCSEs at grades A* to C. It's also been shown that 63 per cent of children who entered care have tragically experienced abuse or neglect that has had a lasting impact on their emotional and mental health, and it is widely reported that 25 per cent of care leavers are parents when leaving care, and this rises to 50 per cent after two years. Furthermore, 25 per cent of the prison population in England and Wales are also care leavers. Having a basic income is not going to resolve these issues. Many of those leaving care are still just as likely to become parents, just as they will have the same educational attainments and still have emotional and mental health complications. It is obvious there needs to be more effective policies introduced to help them. Given that only 635 care leavers will likely ever receive this funding, and it's never going to be financially viable to roll out wholesale, what steps are you taking to increase and improve support for those in care so that they can improve their educational attainment and their emotional and mental well-being alongside their peer group? And what steps are you taking to end this cycle that sees children of care leavers ending up in care?
Finally, Minister, extensive research has shown that almost one third of care leavers are not working or studying, compared with just 2.4 per cent of comparable young people. And among those care leavers who are working, over two thirds are in precarious roles that were short term, part time or poorly paid. This research has also shown that more can be done to remove barriers and disincentives to work for care-experienced young people, and a suitable approach to help care leavers is to provide stronger pathways for young people to go into, and back into, post-16 education and training, and to strengthen links with local employers to improve young people's knowledge of the range of opportunities available to them.Other suggestions have also included targeted pre-employment, pre-apprenticeship support to prepare young people with the most complex needs to take steps towards work-related opportunities, and for education providers and employers to have greater awareness of the trauma and mental health needs of care leavers. Given that current care leavers in the trial will still need additional support to help them obtain jobs, what steps are you taking alongside the basic income trial to help improve job and educational opportunities? Thank you.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Joel James, for those questions.

Jane Hutt AC: I think that it's important just to reflect on this cohort of young people, which actually responds to many of the questions that you have raised. We decided to introduce the pilot for this particular cohort—this group of young people—as we know that care leavers face unique challenges, and you've recognised that in your questions. So, this initiative—our basic income pilot—will further enhance the investment that the Welsh Government has already provided to this group, such as the council tax exemption and the establishment of the St David’s Day fund.
I think that this, in relation to all of the other policies that have been driven forward by the Deputy Minister for Social Services, particularly the radical transformation of services for care-experienced young people—. The Welsh Government recently published the corporate parenting charter, and that’s a pledge of commitment for all sector bodies in their role as corporate parents, with 11 principles of corporate parenting. Of course, that’s really about the collective responsibility of all public bodies to promote the life chances of care-experienced young people, and the need for all public sector bodies to support care-experienced young people as they leave care. All of those 11 principles will cover many of the points that you made. But we must recognise that care leavers are disproportionately disadvantaged, statistically more likely to experience issues such as homelessness and mental health issues—more likely than their peers—and they are over-represented in the criminal justice system.
The cost of an unsuccessful transition into adulthood is high for care leavers and also high for the public. I am also interested to see that the Public Accounts Committee in the last Senedd called for continued investment in services to support young people leaving care. They saw this as an effective example of preventative spending. So, I believe that the ways in which we are addressing this, and how we are taking this forward with our priority in terms of our budget—. We are prioritising budgets based on the principles of protecting front-line public services, targeting support towards those in greatest need. This is in accord with what we are undertaking with this pilot.
It is important to look at the evaluation. Clearly, to get the outcomes that we are seeking, the pilot is subject to a very comprehensive and robust evaluation. I have already outlined the ways in which we are taking this forward, with world-class subject expertise in children’s social care, and also a knowledge of basic income and schemes of this kind. I think that it is important to see that there is going to be wide-ranging, vigorous assessment of its impact. But, what they are looking at are those key factors that will influence a child’s life, a young person's life. It will look at well-being. It will look at financial literacy and security. It will look at ameliorating the effects of poverty. It will look at education and access to the labour market. It will look at physical and mental health. It is being conducted within the real world, and the young people and recipients are engaged in that.
So, this is something that can have a wide-ranging impact and effect on these young people’s lives. I don’t think that we need to go very much further than meeting, as indeed the First Minister, the Deputy Minister for Social Services and I have done, with some young people. Indeed, we are going to meet with some tomorrow, and I am meeting some in Conwy next week. I think that it’s important to hear them, and many of them have actually shared their stories and experiences with us publicly. The young man that we met earlier this year, Brandon, who is on an electrical and plumbing course, and the way in which he was actually taking this forward in terms of the impact that it’s had on his life, is very important to record today.
Also, tomorrow, I think that we are going to be joined by Professor Sir Michael Marmot as well, who is a leading figure in this world, to meet practitioners and young people and hear about their experiences. So, I think that this will all enable us to see the beneficial impact, but also learn the lessons, because, clearly, that’s what ongoing evaluation will deliver. But let’s go back to that particular cohort and see the investment that we are making in this cohort, to see the outcomes that we would, I’m sure, across this Chamber, all seek.

Sioned Williams AS: Thank you for the statement, Minister.

Sioned Williams AS: Plaid Cymru fully supports the care leavers basic income pilot and its goal of addressing poverty and unemployment, as well as improving health and financial well-being. I was a member of the Children, Young People and Education Committee when we held an inquiry into the need for radical reform for care-experienced children and young people, and it was good to hear about the positive effect this pilot scheme has had on the lives of those taking part, and the views of organisations and bodies such as the National Youth Advocacy Service, Public Health Wales and Social Care Wales that the resources provided by basic income were an effective way of addressing the fact that these young people would not otherwise always have sufficient resources to escape the harms of poverty.
But we also heard—and mainly from young people themselves—that more needed to be done alongside that basic income, such as work to help care leavers learn how to budget and how to avoid exploitation. So, could you provide an update, Minister, as to how this type of support is being provided; and specifically, how this has been changed or adjusted during the last 12 months following learning so far from the pilot and those conversations that you mentioned you're having with the young people themselves?
We were also told in committee that young people would have to pay now for things like supported accommodation themselves, but in reality, they perhaps wouldn't be able to afford to do that. The children's commissioner told the committee about issues she had been made aware of relating to eligibility for other means of support, such as student finance, access to housing benefit and access to things like legal aid for those who are seeking asylum. She has stressed that the evaluation of the scheme should reflect on how its administration can be strengthened, to ensure—and this is a quote—'all young people who are eligible can access support in an equitable way' and how basic income payment links with other claimable benefits. So, how has this issue so far been addressed within the pilot, and how is it going to be addressed in the proposed evaluation?
We agree with you, Minister, that it is important that the Welsh Government ensures it supports the care leavers taking part in this pilot after it has ended. I heard evidence, again, as part of the committee's inquiry, that it may be challenging for young people when basic income payment stops. So, what support is being made available for the 24-month period and for when young people transition or exit the scheme? What learning, again, has happened around this? How has that support been modified to reflect any learning from the pilot? Because that first cohort will be facing this, won't they, in July next year. It's not that far away.
It's also important to consider care leavers who are unable to participate in the pilot due to them already having left care, or are looked after but missed the time frame for participating in the pilot. So, what assessment have you made in regard to those who chose, also, not to take part in the pilot? Why was this? And what alternative support was made available for them?
And, again, I don't think we heard the answer in response to Joel James; what considerations are being made to enable the pilot to become a permanent basic income scheme for care leavers, or to expand it to include other groups?

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Sioned Williams. Thank you for your long-standing support and your role in terms of the Children and Young People Committee and the evidence that's taken place in terms of building that profile, that understanding of how we are implementing this pilot.
You ask important questions about, for example, financial advice, because this was based on the care-experienced young people who we met as we developed the policy, before we implemented the basic income pilot initiative. I remember meeting in Voices From Care Cymru one Saturday morning care-experienced young people who wouldn't have benefited from the pilot—obviously, they'd moved on in their lives—but were playing a key part in policy advice and guidance to us in developing the pilot. They said that there will be issues and questions about budgeting and financial support, so we developed this package of individual financial advice and support, and Citizens Advice is delivering on that. Before enrolling on the pilot, applicants were invited to sessions with an independent adviser to discuss the process—the application and payment process et cetera—so that they could actually make an informed choice about participation. And I think due to the fact that we had such a huge take-up—the highest, actually, as I said in my statement, worldwide—we feel that the preparation for the pilot was robust, particularly as it was involved with care-experienced young people. And such a high take-up I think has been very welcome and impressive.
Yes, there are points of disappointment, just in terms of these young people's access to benefits, for example. It's been an issue in relation to legal aid. Just to say, obviously, legal aid isn't devolved, it's a matter for the Ministry of Justice, and it's unlikely, in fact, due to the amount of income received, that a young person would qualify for legal aid if they'd need that representation, depending on individual circumstances. That's why we've had to work and raise these issues with the UK Government. But the UK Government confirmed that young people in receipt of basic income payments would not be exempted from the means test for legal aid. We just had to make sure, also, that young people were not worse off as a result of the pilot and that young people are free to leave the pilot at any point. But these are issues that we've worked through with the technical advisory committee, working with the young people, and those who are now supporting them through the pilot.
It's very important that we do look at transition from the pilot, because young people are thinking about this. When we meet them, they talk about their next steps, their plans for the future, and this is why I do want to acknowledge the role of local authorities. Last week, when the Deputy Minister for Social Services and I attended an event in Aberystwyth, we had representation from all the local authorities, from personal advisers, as well as Citizens Advice, and the leaving care personal advisers are very involved in supporting the young people on this pilot. So, we could talk to the teams directly. The support from the advisers was obviously very much valued by the young people on the pilot. So, they're looking at not just celebrating success—we've given some examples already of the impact of participating in the pilot—but also some of the challenges that may lie ahead for them. Actually, local authorities do have to continue to provide support for recipients, as they would for any other care leavers between 18 and 21. Some do need to look at the final six months; there needs to be a stable platform for how they build their futures. And others just starting or midway through may need more intensive support, as they move forward.
It is important that we also are engaging—as mentioned in response to earlier questions—with the Department for Work and Pensions to explore options for support pathways under the UK Government's care leaver covenant as well. We're working closely with the Department for Work and Pensions on how we support young people as they transition from basic income to universal credit. But I think it's important that young people have had access to wide support relating to financial well-being and general advice, reinforced during the final six months of participation so that they can plan for their transition. What has come over to me very clearly is the sense of self-worth, self-esteem and confidence that we believe in them, that we can play some small part in seeing that they've got some options for the future. I'm sure that we'll be meeting more young people tomorrow, and I will in north Wales on Thursday. Clearly, it's going to be a challenge for many of them, but the hope and prospect that has come through from our young people on the pilot is really admirable, and we pay tribute to the recipients for the way that they're approaching this and taking this forward.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Jack Sargeant AC: Minister, there is significant and undeniable evidence that care-experienced individuals face huge additional barriers to reaching their full potential. This is often because they've faced significant trauma in their childhoods. We've heard consistent opposition to this pilot here in the Senedd. We've heard some Members attempt to even distort the truth when it comes to this pilot—opposition Members of the Senedd never wanting to admit that this was about helping care-experienced individuals reach their full potential whilst testing the true principles of a basic income.
Minister, you referred to the over 600 individual experiences and examples of participants in this pilot. I'll pick just one of those examples, the example of Lil. Lil is now renting her own flat. She is now studying nursing, medicine and healthcare in college. Two years ago, Minister, this wasn't an option. It is now. I'm incredibly proud that this bold step was taken by the Welsh Government. Minister, will you continue to evaluate the successes of this groundbreaking pilot and the life-changing examples, examples like the one I mentioned this afternoon, and not, as others have attempted to do, diminish their achievements?

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Jack Sargeant, and thank you for your foresight, your foresight that goes way back to when you actually brought forward a debate on the prospect of a basic income pilot for our care-experienced young people in Wales, for all the reasons that you have outlined.
I go back to the reason we decided to introduce the pilot for this particular group of young people. It is because we know, as you say, that care leavers face those unique challenges. Of course, we're listening to those who take part in the pilot—that's part of the evaluation. Professor Sally Holland came to our meeting in Aberystwyth, and she was spending time with the young people, asking them for their experience. It's crucial that we hear from the young people in terms of how we determine the success of this globally ambitious project, and also just to hear the difference that this money is making to their lives, the options it's opening up to them. I think evaluation has got to match the ambition of the pilot.
I'm interested you mentioned Lil, because she, as many have, has actually wanted to publicly talk about what this has meant to her. I'll quote from Lil, who is now renting her own accommodation. She said:
'It makes you feel financially stable. It helps a lot, especially when you’re reaching adulthood, you start to get those financial worries and you start thinking about your life a bit more. If I had my flat and wasn’t on this pilot scheme I would really be struggling.'
Now she's studying nursing, medicine and healthcare in college. She also acknowledges the help she's had from her young person's adviser, the local authority adviser, and Citizens Advice, because she really understood that saving money was a big part of that. So, we have got that confidence in the evaluation, in our young people who will share with us, so that we can show that this pilot is aiming to help some of the most vulnerable children and young people who are emerging from the care of local authorities in Wales.

Jane Dodds AS: It brings me literally great joy to be standing here today in support, once again, of the basic income pilot. I'm really proud to be a Member of the Welsh Parliament at this time that has introduced this basic income pilot, because people around the UK are watching us, are listening, are looking and are seeing that we're making a difference to those young people. I would take issue with Joel James in terms of him saying that this is the same as an enhanced benefits system. It is not, it is a payment that is exactly the same to every single young person, it doesn't matter what their circumstances are. The clue is the name is on the tin. It is a basic income to every single young person, and so please, please don't mix it up, because that is not a true picture of what the situation is.
I'm really encouraged by many aspects of this pilot, but particularly the mental health improvements that we're seeing in those young people. Mental health remains one of the biggest issues for our care-experienced young people—accessing it, but also being able to cope with all of the pressures that are on them. There have been many trials, as we know, around the world. There was one in Ontario, as I'm sure you know, in 2018 that resulted in 80 per cent of respondents reporting improved mental health and well-being, 80 per cent less stress and anxiety and 73 per cent reduced depression. That in itself, for me, is worth it, full stop. So, I do hope that we'll be ableto see those mental health outcomes for our young people here in Wales and I look forward to the next, I hope, basic income pilot for transition workers moving from our heavy industries reliant on carbon to our green industries. So, could you just comment on those mental health benefits for care leavers and how we're going to sustain those, particularly when, as we've heard, the pilot comes to an end? Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Jane Dodds, and thank you for that tremendous support again. We have such support across the vast majority of this Senedd, and I hope that others will change their tune. I think it was a more measured set of questions I had from the Welsh Conservatives about this today, which is a good sign, because, Jane Dodds, this is being watched on a global basis, and we just must remember the policy driver is to support care leavers to make a positive transition from local authority care, and it's using basic income as the means to achieve this. It's a mechanism, rather than the purpose of the programme, leading to those outcomes that we're already seeing in terms of improving mental health, improving—. Well, we know that many of the young people will need access to the services, as all young people would in any of their circumstances. But it's already, because of the positive impact it's having on their lives, actually addressing—. This is where, back to the point that came through—this ispreventative, this is intervention, this is future investing in these young people,in terms of their prospects, which could have been so difficult in terms of care experience. So, the pilot's going to test the reality of delivering a basic intervention in a devolved context. We don't have, obviously, all the relevant powers over tax and welfare benefits, but we can learn in terms of successful implementation of this distinctive basic income scheme. We will obviously await the outcome before introducing further schemes, and I think that's an important point—the evaluation is crucial.
Just finally to say that, obviously, the climate change Minister is leading the work on the just transition to a low-carbon economy, and I'm very grateful for your suggestions and interventions on this matter. And, in fact, achieving a just transition to net zero is essential, and this is why we need to learn from it, but, of course, look to this as to what it could mean for us in the future in terms of our pilot on the basic income. And I think the just transition framework—I know that you'll be engaging with that in terms of consultation.

Luke Fletcher AS: I echo much of what Jane Dodds has already said. I think, actually, this provides us another example of how we can do things differently here in Wales, and I, as well as Plaid Cymru, stand steadfast in our support for the pilot.
I'm just thinking ahead now—and I appreciate what you've just said just now, Minister, but thinking ahead—Jane has mentioned here already about potentially extending the pilot to workers working in high-carbon sectors that will be potentially affected through the shift to net zero, and possibly losing their jobs. You are right to highlight, actually, that the impact of this pilot will need to be assessed now in the next few years, and it will take a number of years before we actually see the full results. But the reality is we don't have years to shift to net zero and to implement a just transition. Tata Steel has shown us that. So, taking on board what you said around ensuring that we have the full picture, has anything actually started yet about where we can take this, where next and who next?

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr. I think we are in the early stages of evaluation, and, of course, that is the first step to understanding the impact. We've got that real-life experience that is being shared with this, and, indeed, the evaluation team commissioned back in November has made good progress in terms of our evaluation, and I've already commented on the fieldwork that they're undertaking. And what's important is that it's an evaluation where there's co-production involved in this with care-experienced young people, and we've had to work to test the evaluation methods with the wider academic community, and we are moving forward on that, in order for us to really have a robust evaluation that we can then assess and test. And then, of course, it will be for us to consider in terms of priorities, in terms of future prospects—where does this lie with our priorities? I think it must be seen back in the context as well. I said it's a mechanism, isn't it, in terms of looking at the experiences and lives of our care-experienced young people and the work that's been done, not just by the Deputy Minister for Social Services, but also the useful evidence and engagement with the committee as well, with your inquiry, led by Jayne Bryant and committee members. It is going to be, then, be for us, as you say—it's great to have your steadfast support—to consider the way forward. But let's enable these young people to show us the way.

Joyce Watson AC: I thank you, Minister, for your statement today. I'm sure that Professor Sally Holland and the team at Cardiff University are looking at all measures of metrics and costs and outcomes, but some of those outcomes, like well-being and mental health, that have been mentioned today, are much trickier to quantify than, say, employment. Others, as you say, will take much longer to be realised. So, as the pilot continues, I'm keen to hear about the personal stories, and we've heard some of those today, as well as seeing the data. But what I don't want to hear or see are the tawdry political attacks. Unaccompanied asylum-seeker children are rightly eligible for this scheme. We are talking about children here. We're talking about the most disadvantaged of all children. So, the inaccurate and ill-informed Tory stories on this element of the policy were disgraceful, and they must not be repeated, and neither must they be allowed to detract from what is an excellent scheme, giving, as has been mentioned here today, young people and children a real self-value and worth and letting them know that we care.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Joyce Watson. I think there's little more that I can say but to endorse that, and to actually say that I hope this statement and the forthcoming report that's coming out, the first thematic report, will encourage the opposition to look at this seriously, because it has been so disappointing that we've seen the Welsh Conservatives repeat inaccurate and misleading statements on this matter. It has disappointed everyone involved in this, including the young people themselves, who cannot see why this is not seen as an opportunity, and also a recognition of a Government listening and taking things forward.
Let's just finish. This is a pilot aimed at helping some of the most vulnerable children and young people who are emerging from the care of local authorities in Wales. Those young people are the ones that we now want to seek, to give those opportunities, to give that self-confidence, that self-esteem, that actually so many other of our young people between 18 and 25 take for granted. Diolch yn fawr, Joyce.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I thank the Minister.

5. Statement by the Minister for Economy: Progress Update on the Plan for Employability and Skills

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Item 5 is next, and that's a statement by the Minister for Economy on a progress update on the plan for employability and skills. I call on the Minister, Vaughan Gething.

Vaughan Gething AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. I launched the plan for employability and skills just over 18 months ago, in March 2022. This set out our vision for a stronger, fairer and greener Wales. In our plan, we set out the aim to help people across Wales, particularly those furthest from the labour market, to both navigate and respond to the work-related challenges that they will face throughout their lives, whether that is through training, retraining, upskilling, changing career or starting a business. This reflects the reality that the Department for Work and Pensions support is focused on people who are much closer to being job-ready. We have made a deliberate choice to complement and not compete or contradict DWP support.

Vaughan Gething AC: Our plan goes further than addressing the need for skills and training. It sets out how we will support individuals with all aspects of their employability needs, including: breaking down barriers to employment; support for physical and mental health; and ensuring that people with protected characteristics have equality of opportunity and the right support in place.
Good progress has been made on actions contained within the plan against a backdrop of challenges that will continue in the foreseeable future. These include: the continuing post-pandemic recovery; labour and skill shortages in some areas of the economy; the cost-of-living crisis; and the loss of over £1 billion of EU funding, despite Wales being promised that we would not lose a penny as a result of the UK leaving the EU. We all know that is a promise that has not been kept.
As we set out last week, we have had to make some difficult budget decisions. As a result, it is likely that we will not be able to deliver everything to the same scale or ambition as we set out when we published the plan initially. Despite this, our offer remains steadfast. Whether you're starting out on your employment journey, seeking work, at risk of losing employment or, ultimately, have been made redundant, we have in place effective programmes of support to ensure that nobody is left behind. For example, our Communities for Work+ programme continues to be our key intervention for helping to tackle economic inactivity. It is integrated with Jobcentre Plus services and delivered in partnership with local authorities across Wales to provide intensive personalised support and training. Our ReAct+ programme is a key aspect of support for those who are either affected by redundancies or for those who are short-term unemployed, to help them return to work quickly. Our ReAct+ and Communities for Work+programmes continue to be at the forefront of the co-ordinated offer of redundancy support with DWP, supporting displaced workers. Most recently, this has been evident from Tillery Valley Foods and the ongoing position with UK Windows & Doors.
At the heart of our young people priority is our young person's guarantee—a flexible programme of support for young people under 25 to gain a place in education or training, or to get into work or self-employment. Unique to Wales and launched in April 2022, Jobs Growth Wales+ forms part of this programme for government commitment. It is an exciting opportunity for young people in Wales, with specialised training and development to help them go into either further or higher education or employment. We continuously work with our key stakeholders involved in Jobs Growth Wales+ to address issues and incorporate amendments to further and to improve this service and respond to evolving economic challenges.
We've seen great achievements for young people in terms of vocational education and skills excellence. Our team Wales approach to skills and vocational excellence has led us to medal-winning success in both national and international skills competitions. Wales continues to punch well above our weight, providing a quarter of competitors for the upcoming UK finals. That's the highest performing part of the UK, as we have been for the last five years.
We aim to ensure that our employability programmes continue to operate in these challenging conditions, remain fit for purpose, fit for the future and fit for the transition of the economy and labour market needs. On that basis we have commenced work on a fundamental review of how our key employability programmes—Jobs Growth Wales+, Communities for Work+ and ReAct+—work together.
We're committed to boosting good jobs and, most recently, have provided £2 million in funding to support the creation of 1,000 new jobs in Cardiff by professional services company PwC. Our support is based upon delivery of social mobility in recruitment and progression.
Llywydd, I remain committed to tackling economic inequality, creating a more equal Wales and a society that enables people to fulfil their potential, no matter what their background or circumstance is. To do that, I want to help create an inclusive workforce that reflects society and our communities. Championing fair work for all aims to ensure that workers are fairly rewarded, heard and represented, secure and able to progress in a healthy, inclusive working environment where rights are respected. A fair work guide has been published, which aims to improve the understanding of fair work, and provides illustrative examples of steps employers could take.
Our disabled people's employment champions continue to establish links with employers, employer networks and Business Wales to influence recruitment practices and to seek out and facilitate more collaborative opportunity, with the aim of improving employment levels for disabled people.
We continue to invest in employment support to help people recovering from physical and mental ill health and substance misuse into and to remain in work. The out-of-work peer mentoring service will support up to 10,500 people by March 2025, to help them to rebuild their lives and to get back into training, education and employment.
I recognise the role of employment as a wider determinant of mental well-being. I'm keen that we continue to build strong connections between the employability and skills plan and the new mental health strategy, which will be published for consultation later this year by the Deputy Minister.
Llywydd, we're also nurturing a 'learning for life' culture. As we know, times are changing and Wales’s population continues to age rapidly. As the general population ages, our workforce follows. We have more workers aged 50 and over in Wales than ever before. Our Working Wales mid-life free career review offer recognises this current demand, and careers advisers are providing career guidance for those in employment, as well as for those that are unemployed. From April to August in this year, Working Wales supported over 2,300 adults aged over 50, with over 5,600 one-to-one interactions with a careers adviser.
In terms of lifelong learning, earlier this year, we published our net-zero skills action plan, and, on 12 October, I launched a public consultation on sector skills requirements across our eight key emission sectors.
Llywydd, as I highlighted, we've made good progress in each of our strategic priorities across the plan. However, we continue to face some significant headwinds in terms of the loss of former EU funding, very challenging budget conditions and the continuing left-over negative impacts of the pandemic on our workforce. Despite these challenges ahead, we remain firmly committed to building a stronger, greener and fairer Wales.

Paul Davies AC: Can I thank the Minister for his statement this afternoon? Now, today's statement highlights some of the economic challenges that the country is facing at the moment, for example, the cost-of-living pressures. And that's why it's more important than ever that the plan for employability and skills shows evidence that it is making progress in each of the strategic priority areas within the plan. The overarching aim of the plan is for 75 per cent of working-age adults in Wales to be qualified to level 3 or higher by 2050, and the percentage of working-age adults with no qualifications will be 5 per cent or below in every local authority in Wales by 2050. And I'd appreciate the Minister's assessment of where we are at this stage, and whether he believes those targets are still attainable.
Now, I'm pleased that today's statement has highlighted the ReAct+ programme, which has an important role in supporting those affected by redundancy or for those who are short-term unemployed to return to work quickly. It's vital that schemes like this are sufficiently funded, and, given that the Minister has made it clear that some difficult budget decisions have been made, perhaps he could tell us more about where those cuts will now fall.
Today's statement says that at the heart of the Welsh Government's young people priority is the young person's guarantee, but there's no mention of the apprenticeships offer and the role that apprenticeships will play in delivering the skills agenda. The National Training Federation for Wales has said more than a quarter of Welsh businesses rate apprenticeships higher than any other qualification, and we know that they play a vital role in developing a future pipeline of talent. There has been welcome investment in apprenticeships in the past, and perhaps theMinister can tell us a bit more about any plans to increase the number of apprenticeships available, and the need to ensure those apprenticeships are flexible to accommodate the changing jobs landscape.
Now, I'm pleased that today's statement highlights vocational education. The Minister will be aware of the recent review of vocational qualifications in Wales, which makes some really important recommendations to the Welsh Government, such as developing a national strategy for vocational education and training. It also recommended that the Welsh Government commission work to define the future demand nationally for occupational and skills needs in Wales, and I think this is something that needs to be done as a matter of urgency. Therefore, perhaps the Minister can update us on the discussions he's had, indeed, with the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language about this report and tell us a bit more about the Welsh Government's plans to increase vocational skills opportunities here in Wales.
Now, the statement refers to tackling economic inequality, and the Welsh Government has talked about exploring legislation to address pay gaps based on gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, disability and other forms of discrimination. I'd be grateful if the Minister could confirm if that's still being considered.
The Welsh Government has also driven changes to Wales's working culture, so that at least 30 per cent of Welsh workers work from home or near to home. I appreciate that this can give more people the choice to work in a way that helps their productivity, their work-life balance and any caring commitments they have, but there has been little assessment of the impact that working from home has on people's mental health, as well as on the wider economic benefits that are lost when people are not working from their workplace. Therefore, I'd be grateful if the Minister can confirm whether it's still Welsh Government policy to push for at least 30 per cent of the workforce to work from home. If that is the case, perhaps he could tell us whether the Welsh Government is meeting that target, and perhaps he can also tell us what work has been and is being done to understand the economic impact of changing Wales's working culture.
There's also more we can do to support people with a long-term health condition to work. And I know that, in this plan, the Welsh Government has prioritised developing healthy workplaces, for example. Perhaps the Minister could provide us with an update on expanding rapid access to occupational therapy support in the workplace. It would be useful to know what additional investment the Welsh Government has made in this area and what support is being offered to employers on how to support disabled people and those with long-term health conditions in the workplace.
Today's statement also reinforces the importance of learning for life, and I very much support the mid-life free career reviews, which encourage workers aged 50 and over to proactively think about career and skills development, health and well-being, finance and work-life balance through Working Wales. Perhaps the Minister can tell us more about this work and also any steps to widen participation in learning in the workplace.
And finally, Llywydd, the way we live and work is changing. Digitalisation and automation is transforming our lives, and I urge the Welsh Government to carryout an analysis of the impacts of digitalisation and automation on the Welsh economy. And given that it's not mentioned in the statement today, perhaps the Minister can tell us how the Welsh Government is exploring the impact of digitalisation and automation on the Welsh economy, and how the Welsh Government is working to promote training and development opportunities to employees, so that skills are developed to complement emerging technologies like these.
So, Llywydd, with that, can I thank the Minister for his statement today? I look forward to continuing scrutinising the Welsh Government on this agenda over the coming weeks and months.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the long list of questions—I'll try to answer as many as I can without tempting the patience of the Llywydd.
Look, I think the starting point of this is, having set out what we want to do, we've had a range of different shocks, which I've set out. I tried to set out honestly that it will affect the impact of the scale and how far we can reach, but we're still looking to do what we set out, which is to make sure we have a more coherent offer, deliberately pitched at people further away from the labour market, because of where the DWP, through Jobcentre Plus, are much more active. We continue to have conversations with the UK Government, certainly at an officer level, that are often constructive, about how those things match up. And actually, the fact that I mentioned in the statement what we've done with both Tillery Valley Foods and the ongoing situation with UK Windows & Doors is a good example of where those interventions can work well together. And what DWP are doing is actually reliant on and takes account of what we are doing through these programmes as well, and it's across the whole sweep of those. We'll have more figures when it comes to qualification achievements through the rest of this year, and I'm more than happy to come back to the Member. And obviously, at some point, this will come back to the committee that he chairs, when he's not in his political spokesperson role, as well.
On budget strategy, it won't surprise the Member that, beyond the broad indication that we've given, we're going through the next year's budget strategy, and there'll be a budget that will be laid in December by the Welsh Government and that will set out the detail of what we are going to be able to do with the reality that our budget is worth a significant amount less than when the spending review was published. That is significantly eroded by what's taken place over the last year or so. So, there will be difficult choices to make, and there is no consequence-free way of making those choices. The Member will have an interest, but, actually, we will have a sum of money to spend that we can't spend several times over. So, as well as making sure the budget balances, we're going to have to be able to set out some of those priorities. And within that, it's probably worth pointing out at this point that I continue to discuss matters with the education Minister. It's probably a good thing that he's in the Chamber because I'm sure we'll get specific questions from Dr David about his report and other matters, but actually to—[Interruption.]Oh, well. But, on a range of these areas, I've had a discussion this week with the education Minister about areas of our portfolios that overlap, about the reality of the difficult budget choices we both have to make, to make sure they're as co-ordinated as possible. But we still want to make it clear that the vocational skills offer is a key part of what we're doing into the future, and how the new commission is actually going to be taking forward a role within that space as well. So, there's ongoing work that we're doing, and, actually, the review that I've referred to, on the way in which our different programmes work together, is part of seeing that wider puzzle come together.
On apprenticeships, we've seen a reduction in demand, and that's perhaps not unsurprising, given what's happened in the last year. So, there are more businesses concerned about their future, there are more businesses, therefore, anxious about investing in their own workforce, despite the fact that it's a self-improvement; they need to invest in the skills of their current workforce as well as those people coming in new. But also we've seen some evidence that some younger people are thinking again about whether they have wanted to invest themselves in an apprenticeship for the gain that comes in the longer term, but, actually, whether they can gain more from going into paid work, as opposed to going into an apprenticeship rate. So, we've seen that demand reduce, but actually I'm confident that over the next year, from the discussions that I've had, and my officials have had, with both apprenticeship providers and the broader sector, that we will start to see a recovery in apprenticeship numbers. And we're keen to do so; I'm confident that we will see more apprenticeship starts within this Senedd term than the previous one. We're still going to have to balance how we see those alongside other skills interventions that businesses themselves have said they want—so, the shorter term courses that don't actually count for full-term apprenticeships.
I'll deal with your point about digital risks and opportunities and then working from home. So, digital risks and opportunities—it's a key risk and an opportunity in the transition to move from where people are now across every single area of the economy and public services. There are opportunities to improve the design and the fit of those services, both for workers and for the public who rely upon them. The same thing in the private sector as well. If you think about manufacturing, the greater digitisation, the whole use of more technology, the conversations I've had this week with the UK Government about the role of AI, there are real opportunities in there and there are risks that go alongside that. But I'm sure, when the Member visits businesses with a manufacturing interest, he'll see more and more people working alongside greater levels of automation, and the skill level of people in those settings is actually really high. So, there's still a need to invest in the skills of workers, and there are understandable wage expectations as that happens, alongside the growing process of greater technology and automation. And that will only carry on, but I still think there's a really good career and a good prospect for high-value manufacturing. We'll still see some things where people physically need to put some things together, but, actually, I think, in high-value manufacturing in north, south, east and west Wales there's a good future ahead of us. And again, digital opportunities are part of that, but not the only thing. The redesign of services in a different way is one of those big opportunities from it.
And on working from home, we continue to be committed to seeing about 30 per cent of people working from home regularly. You've actually seen during the pandemic an acceleration of a trend that was already taking place about a mix of working. Not every person can work from home in their job, but, for those that can, because people were forced to work from home during the pandemic, we've seen a number of things that businesses want to maintain from that. Some people are keen to have people back in work full time, others are seeing the balance between hybrid working—some in the office, some outside of an office, typically—and, actually, there's demand driven by both businesses, because of some of the points you've mentioned about some productivity improvements. For some people it helps them better to balance their life outside work with the work within it, and also for some people it improves their mental health and their ability to balance a range of other matters as well. But working from home isn't ideal for every person, because our circumstances in our home will differ, from the ability to work there and other challenges and commitments around it. So, this is something where the broad objective, I think, will provide different economic opportunities—if you have more people working from home, there's more economic activity likely to take place near where they live, as opposed to where they work—and, at the same time, understanding then the deliberate value of in-person activity when it takes place—. And I think those are still things that, in the Government, we're working through, as, indeed, are sectors of the economy. But I don't think the clock is going to get turned back to everyone being expected to go into the office for as long as possible, and I do think we'll have a better world of work as a result of that.

Luke Fletcher AS: I thank the Minister for his statement today.

Luke Fletcher AS: Of course, there are no two ways about it: it's disappointing that the Government are anticipating that they won't be able to meet the full level of their ambition. And, to be fair as well, it's no doubt disappointing for the Minister. I imagine this isn't exactly what you would have wanted to come to the Chamber to say today. But, of course, it's particularly disappointing because Wales has already been lagging behind when it comes to skills and employability.

Luke Fletcher AS: In 2022, 66.8 per cent of working-age adults in Wales held at least level 3 qualifications. That's lower than Scotland, who clocked in at 74.4 per cent. It's also worth noting that the Open University's latest business barometer report, which assesses the UK skills landscape, found that 75 per cent of organisations in Wales are currently facing skills shortages—the highest proportion in the UK. This has left 43 per cent of Welsh organisations unable to fill roles as a result of the lack of skills in Wales.
Now, of course, thanks to the co-operation agreement, in July 2023, a report was published that looked into vocational qualifications in Wales and found that, over the last five years, the number of learners starting vocational qualifications has decreased. Worryingly, it also found that Wales does not have an overarching strategy for post-16 learning and that Wales does not have a clear assessment of our national occupational and skills needs for the future.
As was confirmed during the financial update last week, we also know that the budget line for apprenticeship programmes is going to be reduced by £17.5 million in the middle of the current financial year. This saving has been justified on the basis that the programmes are demand led. But I think this does raise a serious question as to why there wasn't more take-up, given the situation we find ourselves in. I'd be very grateful, therefore, if the Minister could explain why there are such cuts to the apprenticeship programmes if we want to encourage take-up in the long term.
This should also, I think, be contextualised against Welsh Labour's target to create 125,000 all-age apprenticeships within the current Senedd term; a target to be welcomed. But the latest statistics show that there have been 33,365 apprenticeship starts since the target was set, with the measure in question also having been recently modified to include degree apprenticeships within the total figure. Over halfway through this current Senedd term, only a quarter of Welsh Labour's targets have been reached, even with the use of more flexible criteria for defining all-age apprenticeships. Clearly, there needs to be a rapid acceleration in the creation of apprenticeships, far beyond the rate we've witnessed so far this term, for the target to be met within the next two and a half years. And of course, the statement doesn't provide any assurance that this will happen. I do struggle to see how we can say on the one hand that the offer is steadfast from Welsh Government whilst on the other cutting funding, and then of course the pretty damning conclusions of the report into vocational qualifications. Minister, do you still think that your party's manifesto pledge on apprenticeships is achievable and, if so, could you explain how you're going to do it, given your statement today?
On Jobs Growth Wales specifically, a number of organisations have raised concerns about their sustainability, namely increased waiting lists and budget pressures. Jobs Growth Wales plays, of course, an important part when it comes to employability and skills, but, again, we've seen a cut to its budget in year 2. Anecdotally, we've heard that some local authority areas have spent their full budget in three months. We've also heard that waiting lists are increasing. In Merthyr, I've had confirmation today that the waiting list now stands at 24. So, I would be grateful if the Minister could give his rationale for a cut to Jobs Growth Wales, and could he also give the figure for how many young people across Wales are waiting to access Jobs Growth Wales? If we don't get on top of this now, then the long-term costs of these young people remaining unemployed will be far worse, not just for the Government's budget, but for those individuals themselves.
And, finally, it will be of no surprise to anyone that I circle back to the retention of students in education, and I've put on record my thanks to the Government and the education Minister for increasing the education maintenance allowance. It's a step in the right direction and something that is already helping students who are receiving it. Of course, the EMA alone will not be enough to keep young people from leaving education to work, but one thing that has struck me is the lack of data around the retention of students. And, of course, Minister, you are right that there's a question involving the education Minister here, but given the clear crossover between both your and the education Minister's departments, what work is being done, firstly, to ensure that we collect the data around the retention of students in a uniform way, and secondly, is there any work being done to understand the reasons for young people leaving education? With my campaign to increase EMA, every session we did with students and are doing with students, in almost every panel, every student raises their hand to the question, 'Do you know anyone who is considering leaving education to get a job, or have you considered leaving yourself?' We needed to get on top of this yesterday, and I hope the Government is taking the affordability of education seriously, because if we don't then there will continue to be a skills gap and there will continue to be issues around employability.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you. I think, on some of those questions, we've rehearsed them on more than one occasion. When it comes to supporting people to complete education and training courses, we have, as the Member's recognised, provided additional direct support. It's a more generous offer than in other parts of the UK to try to make sure that people can stay in education and realise the benefit from it. We've also provided additional support through the Jobs Growth Wales+ programme, to ensure that people are helped with costs, to make sure they can complete the course and the benefit from it. And the good news is that, actually, Jobs Growth Wales+ is a success story; it's a success story in terms of positive outcomes for people who take it up. That's also why we're seeing a number of people looking to go onto the course. For something that's been relaunched not that long ago, and that we've deliberately changed following feedback from providers and from people taking part in Jobs Growth Wales+ as well, the challenge always is how we can reliably continue to expand provision to meet need and demand. That's one of our challenges: in a demand-led programme, how we continue to do that.
I've had a conversation this week, actually, with my officials, around the fact that we are getting to be full in a number of Jobs Growth Wales+ initiatives. So, I'm looking at what flexibilities we do have, bearing in mind the budget realities that we have to address. My department, as with others, had a part to play in meeting the Government's overall objectives in being able to put more resources into key public services. And if we were having a different debate, with a different Minister, there would be a different question about why even more couldn't be done. Well, this is the reality of what doing something like that in-year looks like.
There are a number of reasons for it. We know about the significant impact of inflation, unfunded pay rises in the sense that when there's a UK-wide or an England-and-Wales agreement, you normally have money that comes with it, but that hasn't happened, and the broader economic mismanagement in—. Rishi's had his anniversary recently, but over that year and the chaos that preceded his arrival in Downing Street, there's still a real impact on what we are dealing with here. The in-year budget challenge means you can't be as strategic as you want to be; it's where there are savings to be made and where you can find them that helps to drive lots of the choices that we then have.
In the budget for next year, the discussions we're already having, we should be able to take a more strategic approach, but there will still be really difficult choices for us to make and we will not be able to meet all of the legitimate expectations of Ministers, never mind Government-supporting backbenchers or other Members in this Chamber and beyond. But we'll have to set out the best possible approach, not just for the things that we can't do, but to be clear about why we have deliberately chosen to carry on doing a number of other things. That includes what we're going to carry on doing in terms of the broader area of apprenticeships and skills.
Part of this, as I said in response to Paul Davies, is about understanding the reduction in in-year demand that we would otherwise have expected because the economy has been so flat over this last 12 months. So, that's why we've had a saving in-year. In different budget circumstances, I would have been doing more work to encourage more businesses and individuals to take up the apprenticeship offer through the rest of this financial year. Going into next year, as I said, I think we will have a healthy interest in our apprenticeship programmes in a range of different sectors and how we'll look to develop that.
I have already said, though, some months ago, that we do not anticipate meeting the 125,000 starts within this Senedd term, and that we'll go into at least one more year, so into year 6 in a future Senedd. But, as I've said earlier today, I am still confident we'll see more apprenticeship starts within this Senedd term than in the previous Senedd term, but, as I say, we'll need at least another year to get to 125,000 starts, and that goes alongside other interventions to try to help improve skills for the incoming workforce—people starting work anew, people moving jobs, or people staying in the same work as well.
And, finally, on your characterisation of the vocational qualifications report, I don't think either myself or the education Minister would say this was a damning report; I think it was a constructive report that looked at where we are and gave us an opportunity to deliberately improve for the future. If you're not prepared to ask for an honest perspective on where you are now, you can't expect to actually do something about the position you find yourself in and where you want to be. And I hope that constructive review will allow us to deliberately build the sort of vocational qualifications and skills network that we want for ourselves and for the economic future of the country.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Chair of the Children, Young People and Education Committee, Jayne Bryant.

Jayne Bryant AC: Diolch, Llywydd, and I'm speaking today in my capacity as the Chair of the Children, Young People and Education Committee, and I'd like to thank the Minister for the statement today. And there is a lot to talk about in this, but I'm going to focus on just one aspect.
As part of our evidence gathering for our inquiry into disabled access into childcare and education, we've heard lots of stark personal stories demonstrating the barriers for parents and carers of children with additional needs in securing or maintaining employment. Parents and carers have told us they've either had to stop working or have been unable to return to work, because they cannot secure any appropriate accessible education or childcare, or because they are expected by schools or childcare to be available at any given moment. These expectations of constant availability don't exist for parents of non-disabled children. We have heard only too often of the impact this has had on households and household income, and also the wider impact on emotional and mental well-being. This impact is felt throughout the family and doesn't just sit on the parents' and carers' shoulders. We've heard repeated instances of families breaking down under the pressure.
I therefore wanted to ask the Minister today what actions are being taken, as part of the employability and skills plan, to ensure that these parents and carers can either continue in employment or can secure employment. I note there are actions in the plan around the expansion of the childcare offer, but what specifically can be done to ensure that families can access inclusive and accessible education and childcare that provides children and young people with educational and play opportunities, but also supports parents and carers to work, with all the financial and wider benefit that brings to the family and the wider community? Diolch.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the question, Chair.

Vaughan Gething AC: I think this, again, neatly highlights that this goes across more than one area within the Government, because it's both about the childcare provision itself being accessible and appropriate for the child, how it's arranged, and then the affordability of it, and what that then means for a parent who wants to take up the training opportunities to get back into work or to remain in work already. And that's part of the reason that underpins why we're looking to review some of the provision between our programmes: whilst we think they've been successful, actually, we think we can do more in understanding how they work with each other.
So, Communities for Work+ is delivered by local authorities; it's deliberately targeted at supporting people into employment and training opportunities. It deliberately looks at people with protected characteristics—so, disabled people and disabled children are part of that; lone parents are part of that as well. There's a whole range of things we're trying to do in having a programme that is fit for those people. And, at the same time, if you're looking to undertake training or employment opportunities, the ReAct+ programme looks at helping with some of these costs as well, depending on the position that you find yourself in. So, that is what we are looking to do. There is always more that we can do, and hearing directly from people about whether the programme works for them or not—both those where it works and works well, but equally where we understand that it hasn't worked well enough for that person and for their family as well—in trying to see that person, that whole person, so not just what the parent needs, but also what that means for their child and their ability to carry on in work.
I'd be very happy to look in more detail and to do proper justice to the question that's been asked, to look at some of the work that the Member's referred to, the work the committee's doing, and then to provide a more considered response. I'm happy to do that either in the Chamber or, indeed, back to the committee.

Alun Davies AC: Minister, I'm grateful to you for your statement this afternoon. We have of course discussed a number of matters here over the last few weeks. You've discussed the productivity enhancement project, which I questioned the First Minister about earlier today, and we've both discussed the impact of the dualling of the A465 on the Heads of the Valleys economy and how we can maximise the value of that. You will be aware that I attended an event with the Secretary of State for Wales, some weeks ago, at the HiVEproject in Ebbw Vale, and there was a commitment there, with Coleg Gwent, the local authority,as well as the Secretary of State, and, I hope, from the Welsh Government as well, to work together to deliver the best outcomes for people within Blaenau Gwent, but also the wider Heads of the Valleys region.
Minister, it would be useful if you could outline how you see this employment plan and work that you're undertaking fitting into that wider economic investment programme, because what's important, I think, for all of us who represent seats in the Heads of the Valleys region, is that we see a jobs plan, an employability plan, an economic plan, an industrial strategy that fit together and provide the maximum opportunities from the investment that the Welsh Government is making in the area.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the question and the points. Picking up on the question you asked the First Minister earlier today, we're not just talking about some of the things we're already doing to help with business productivity—and that is largely about skills, but also, sometimes, it's about capital investment to make a business more productive as well—you often then need to improve the skills of the workers to take advantage of what that looks like. But you highlighted the fact that because of the investment in the transport infrastructure and the work we're doing on productivity, there are more people who are interested in locating themselves in different parts of Wales. That then means you need to have the sites to bring forward for those opportunities, both for businesses that are there and want to expand as well as larger opportunities. We've discussed some of those on larger sites that are potentially required for the level of interest that now exists, and I don't think that would be the case had it not been for that long-term investment in transport infrastructure.
That has to go alongside investing in the skills of people; it's why the work of our regional skills partnerships is so important. It's why I've invested a significant amount of time in a conversation with the Cardiff capital region about making sure that they have an approach that, yes, looks at the opportunities south of the M4, but also looks deliberately at the northern Valleys as a group of communities that need to have deliberate investment made in them. So, in the work that the Deputy Minister and I have done with the capital region, I think we're going to see an approach, I hope, in the coming weeks where we'll be able to see both the Government and the capital region sign up to an approach for the northern Valleys. And that should then have some shared objectives, I hope. It's what I referred to in last week's statement as well, and I'm committed to doing that, because we won't see the economic potential of the people in those communities unless there's a deliberate programme for investment and priority.
You'll see more of what looks like a national plan at the end of November, when we're looking at refreshing the economic mission to set out what our approach is, and I do then hope we'll see constructive engagement with the current and any future UK Government, where we can agree on a set of priorities to maximise the investment choice we're making, and not to have the current competition to do things differently. The unhelpful competition on the skills offer, for example, is just one of those areas. It's a more confused landscape for businesses, and that, actually, doesn't help to see the sort of investment that you and I, and, I believe, other people in this Chamber, would like to see. But I'm optimistic that we'll have a better idea of what we have already done and what we can do at the end of this month, and I look forward to a constructive answer from the current, or, indeed, a future UK Government to allow us to do so.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: I want to ask about the provision of civil engineering trade apprenticeships in Wales, because a letter was sent to you, Minister, nearly a whole year ago now by the Civil Engineering Contractors Association Wales raising concerns about the lack of provision for civil engineering operative apprenticeships here in Wales. They're often referred to as ground worker apprenticeships, and, obviously, they're pretty crucial—there wouldn't be much civil engineering happening without them. A similar situation exists for civil engineering plant operatives as well, or machine drivers as we know them. But despite this 12 months having elapsed, feedback from the sector indicates that the situation hasn't changed, with no provision via further education colleges. Unless this matter is addressed, then, clearly, Welsh civil engineering businesses will gradually grind to a halt and won't be able to take full advantage of the future opportunities that are anticipated across the infrastructure sector. So, can you tell us what you're doing about the situation, and what assurances you can give us that this is something that you are addressing?

Vaughan Gething AC: Funnily enough, I was having a conversation with, I think, Jones Bros Civil Engineering when I was in Morlais recently with other Ministers, and, indeed, the Tánaiste, the Deputy Prime Minister of the Republic of Ireland, where, actually, they were looking at, and I think were quite impressed with, the steps that we're already taking to try to capitalise on renewable forms of energy; obviously, Morlais is looking at tidal stream at this point. And actually, what was interesting about the perspective was there is still a healthy career in the future of the civil engineering sector. Whilst some of those had been looking for primarily road building to be their key area of work—and we'll still be building roads, especially when it comes to opening up future economic development opportunities—they were also looking at the fact that lots of what they were now doing in civil engineering projects was actually about looking at climate change projects, including opportunities around the future of the renewable sector. We’ll see lots of civil engineering need around port infrastructure, for example, as well. Now, I can’t tell you that I can give you an exact answer to the specific question about apprenticeships in the civil engineering sector, but I’m more than happy to come back to you, and indeed the wider sector that I do talk to on a regular basis as part of the construction sector, but I recognise this is a specific part of it. But I'm more than happy to write to you, and indeed the sector body as well.

Hefin David AC: I think the Welsh Government should take very real credit for the support given to the rail engineering degree apprenticeship that is running from January. I was at the launch of that, and it is equipping our workforce for a publicly owned rail service in the future, and making sure that we use our talent at home to keep that service world class.
Pages 50 and 51 of the plan, though, that the Minister has been talking about talk about the expansion of personal learning accounts, the introduction of a mid-career review through Working Wales, and the publication of a new national occupational standards strategy. Can I ask him just to elaborate on progress with those three aspects of the plan?

Vaughan Gething AC: On personal learning accounts, we have invested more, and in this budget round we're going to have conversations around not just the scale of the investment but how flexible it is as well, to make sure that the benefit is as easily realised as possible, to make sure our process doesn't get in the way of people actually taking up the opportunity. That is a conversation that the education Minister and I have had, and there are budget choices around that to make sure that we maximise the investment from it.
I'll need to come back to you about national occupational standards.
On your point around rail apprenticeships, I'm very pleased that we're doing that, and I think we can take some credit from that in the work that we are deliberately doing.
I think all of this shows that, in the progress we’re making, I think you can see that there are deliberate choices we’ve made as well as some of the headwinds we’ve faced, but I’m confident that, after another year, you’ll see further progress again on what we’ve been able to do to support more people to undertake the skills and employability support that they need to actually have a better economic future ahead of them.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: And finally, Rhianon Passmore.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Thank you. Minister, I warmly welcome your statement today and its real contribution toward our stronger, greener and fairer Wales. As we face head-on the loss of extensive specific EU funding, the pandemic impact and over a decade of real-terms cuts to the Welsh budget, this update on the progress of the aim of the plan for employability and skills is an important reminder of the key principles that guide this Welsh Labour Government, namely to put in place strategic, effective support here to support and ensure that nobody is left behind. You state more workers are aged 50 and over in Wales than ever before, so how, then, Minister, does the Welsh Government intend to build on the excellent work carried out by Working Wales, which supports people to access enabling, empowering and supportive interactions with careers advisers?

Vaughan Gething AC: I'm sorry, I should perhaps have dealt with this—it was one of the three points that Hefin David asked and I didn't come to. That was around the support we are providing through Working Wales for the mid-career reviews. Actually, we're seeing a decent amount of take-up for that. I think I refer to this in my statement as well—we are seeing thousands of people take that up, and that's important, because more of us in our future working lives can anticipate working through our fifties with a significant chunk of our career still to come. More people will be thinking about changing their career in their fifties, with still a large amount of working life ahead of them, and so it's about how we support people to do that. That change can be quite difficult at that time as well, particularly if you've worked in one area for a long period of time. So that's what we're looking to do, and part of our budget challenge will be about how we make sure that, in setting a future budget, we're able to maintain the provision that we know is being successful, we know is being more widely recognised and taken up. And I'm really positive about the outcomes we are seeing in helping people to look at alternative career choices or indeed looking at future opportunities within a certain careers setting as well.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I thank the Minister.

6. Statement by the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language: Attendance Guidance

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The next item is the statement from the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language on attendance guidance. I call on the Minister to make his statement. Jeremy Miles.

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you, Llywydd. Members will be aware of the importance that I attach to improving attendance rates at our schools. I remain concerned that, since the pandemic, too many young people are missing out on invaluable school time. This can impact on their well-being, their social skills, and their education. We can be in no doubt that our education system is still very much recovering from the awful impact of the pandemic.
In previous statements to this Chamber, I have set out a number of the actions we're taking already. We have provided over £6.5 million in funding this financial year for more family engagement officers; we have provided £2.5 million for education welfare officers to provide more support for learners with high absence rates; we are updating the all-Wales attendance framework; Estyn have strengthened their reporting requirements on attendance; and we are now requiring all schools to make available their attendance policies to allow a greater focus on the policy.
To support this work, I’m pleased to publish today the new attendance guidance, 'Belonging, engaging and participating'. The guidance, consulted on during the summer, sets out approaches to help practitioners and partners to improve learner engagement and attendance. It recognises the varied nature of the learner experience in school and at home, and the overlapping factors that lie behind learner absence or disengagement from education, including mental health and well-being, availability of specific learning support services, the rising cost of living, and attitudes of parents and learners towards school attendance generally. It therefore places emphasis on whole-school strategies and strong multi-agency working arrangements to support the complex needs of learners and their families.

Jeremy Miles AC: Significantly, the guidance now changes the statistical definition of ‘persistent’ absence, which is currently defined as more than 20 per cent. This measure is often set as the trigger for certain kinds of intervention such as the involvement of the education welfare service. Following consultation, we are now lowering the threshold to 10 per cent to encourage earlier intervention.
It reinforces the discretionary powers available to local authorities to make any arrangement they think fit to facilitate home-to-school transport. The guidance also provides clarity in relation to part-time timetables, which, as part of a pastoral plan, can help learners reintegrate into a school after a long absence, or be a means of preventing greater absence. It also sets out the importance of schools working in a trauma-informed way. The research is clear that there is association between childhood adversity and trauma and poorer school attendance, behaviour and learning outcomes. Post COVID, this is more important than ever. Understanding the issues children and families face is critical to developing impactful interventions, but it’s clear there is no one solution, one group or one sector that can address this issue fully. A multi-agency approach, involving families and communities where professionals and services communicate effectively with each other to co-ordinate the support, is needed.
Improving attendance requires a national effort. So, I have established a multi-agency national attendance taskforce. The taskforce will provide strategic direction, set priorities and identify further tangible actions to drive improvements in attendance and re-engage our learners. In doing this I want us to draw on and build on good practice in schools as well as national and international evidence.The taskforce will draw on experience from local government education and social services departments, school heads and unions, Estyn, health boards, the GP community, youth services, Parentkind, Children in Wales, the police, the Youth Parliament, the academic community with direct experience and others. I am placing a list in the Senedd library today with the names of those appointed to the taskforce. A priority for this group will be to look in depth into the reasons behind non-attendance and bring to bear their expertise to identify actions to bring about sustained improvements.
Llywydd, we know there's a linkbetween deteriorating attendance and subsequent behavioural and emotional problems, which, if not addressed, may lead to exclusion of these learners from school. As such, activity is now under way to review the exclusions guidance, develop referral and commissioning guidance for education other than at school provision, and to develop school behaviour guidance. The exclusions guidance will be revised in two phases. Phase 1 will involve amendments relating to legislative and policy changes, strengthening guidance around children with protected characteristics and amending the tone and language used in the guidance so it reflects a rights-based and trauma-informed approach. We will publish this in December 2023. The second phase will involve a more fundamental revision of the exclusion guidance, with consideration to the learners who we now know can be disproportionately subjected to permanent or temporary exclusions. This includes, for example, learners with special educational needs and care-experienced learners. To support this second phase, we commissioned research to identify approaches that are effective in avoiding exclusions and identifying the support needed to avoid exclusions as well. We expect to receive the research report in December 2023 and will consult on the second phase update next year.
Education other than at school provision is an important provision to ensure children who are unable to attend mainstream provision can continue to receive their education. Estyn has recently reported that the pandemic has led to higher referral rates, higher pupil numbers and longer waits, and increases in referrals for younger pupils and pupils with social, emotional and mental health issues. We are currently developing referral and commissioning guidance to support schools and local authorities with the commissioning of EOTAS provision, including how to undertake due diligence when commissioning provision, to ensure the provision addresses the needs of individual pupils and is of high quality.
Positive behaviour are essential foundations for effective learning environments, in which all members of the school community feel respected, safe and secure. They shape the school ethos and they make a statement about how the school values and includes all the people in it. So, in collaboration with partners, we are currently developing guidance thataims to support senior leaders in schools and pupil referral units to make well-informed decisions about their behaviour policies. The guidance will include strategies that can help prevent behavioural issues from occurring, deal with behaviour issues when they happen and set out the importance of consistent and clear behaviour strategies that promote positive behaviour.
Llywydd, there are examples of excellent practice in our schools to improve attendance, on family engagement and schools working closely with local authority services to put in place specialist support. By taking a collaborative approach and shared responsibility, we can build on this excellent work and increase the impact that schools and local authorities can have.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you for your statement, Minister. There have been long-standing concerns about pupil absence, so guidance on this issue today is most welcomed. In the year 2018-19, the absenteeism figure stood at 5.7 per cent, yet this figure has now risen to 10.5 per cent in the 2022-23 academic year, the data shows. Meanwhile, persistent absenteeism among pupils eligible for free school meals has more than doubled, rising from 8.4 per cent in 2018-19 to 18.8 per cent in 2022-23. Students with high absence rates are at a significant disadvantage by missing out on key learning opportunities. So, the Welsh Conservatives have been urging Welsh Ministers to come forward with a detailed plan to address the rise in school absences, which ultimately does appear to come from a lack of funding.
So, Minister, do you think constantly cutting the education budget is going to help to address the absenteeism issue that we're seeing? It is clear that prolonged absence from school has an impact on learning attainment and mental health, so I am glad that you have listened to our previous calls for action. It should, as you say, be your No. 1 priority for a number of reasons. You mentioned that the guidance highlights the need for schools to work with the appropriate agencies to make sure learners get the support they need. There are still huge question marks, however, around this and whose responsibility it is. At the moment, there are 22 different interpretations of what help for learners should look like. So, how will this work in reality? If it falls on teachers, when do they have the time? If not teachers, are you going to be resourcing specialist help in every school in Wales?
Finally, Minister, you have mentioned Pontypridd High School, and about how staff analysed data and found that learners eligible for free school meals had significantly worse attendance, as well as learners who did not engage well with school work during lockdown. So, how are we going to analyse the free-school-meals data when it is universal now? So, how are you going to better identify those in need?
You also speak of getting parents involved as part of the Welsh Government's community-focused schools approach. This sounds good, but in reality, can this be achieved? As we have seen with relationships and sex education, parents' voices have been shut down and ignored in the face of widespread criticism—unlike the UK Government, which has announced full involvement for parents today. If you can involve parents, then why only on this topic and not RSE?
Minister, your record on truly involving parents in decisions leaves a lot to be desired. So, can you set out just what form this will take? How will it happen, especially if parents give you feedback that is different from what you wanted? Will this be ignored? How can you engage with parents more widely? Thank you. Diolch.

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, there are a series of rhetorical points, I think, in the Member's contribution, but where there were questions, I'll seek to address them. I don't think it's helpful to aim to politicise what is a complex and multifaceted issue. It is a challenge that countries across the world are grappling with in a very serious-minded way, as a consequence of some of the pressures caused by COVID. It's not entirely a consequence of that, but it is certainly a significant contributor. The nature of absence seems to have become more complex and, again, more multifaceted, for a range of different and possibly new reasons. This is not the product of any one school system. It’s a set of common challenges. But we are not stepping back from the challenge; very much the opposite. The statement that I've given I hope describes to Members fully, not just the work already under way, but five new significant actions that we are taking to seek to get to grips with this challenge, and to support schools and other agencies and parents and learners to ensure that attendance levels improve.
The Member rightly opened her contribution with a number of statistics, which are familiar, and none of us will be prepared to tolerate an ongoing situation in the way that she described it. What we know is that this is a challenge that can only be addressed effectively by a multi-agency approach. It's not something that schools can solve on their own. There is a significant role for parents. Incidentally, as a side note, I entirely refute the point that she made about the involvement of parents in RSE. The UK Government’s announcement today is, in fact, indicating for England what is already the case for Wales. But as I mentioned in my statement, we will be involving parents in the work of the taskforce. This already happens at a local level in many parts of Wales. I've already spoken about the role of Parentkind to make sure that the way in which we engage parents is done in a way that facilitates that process for parents. She will also know, I’m sure, from her reading of the guidance, and the guidance that has been published today, that there is a significant portion of that that is designed to support schools and other agencies in engaging parents to make sure that their children can return to school.

Sioned Williams AS: Thank you for the statement, Minister. Plaid Cymru has consistently expressed concerns about the increase in the number of children who are absent from school. So, we welcome this new guidance and the focus on this issue. It's symptomatic of a number of factors, isn't it, that we have raised, that affect learners and their access to education, such as the impact of poverty and the cost of the school day, the lack of transport and the unaffordability of transport, and a lack of support for learners with additional learning needs. And it's good to see that the guidance does consider a number of these factors.

Sioned Williams AS: The impact of child poverty in particular is apparent in the figures, with those children eligible for free school meals markedly more likely to miss school on a regular basis. NEU Wales, Wales’s largest education union, has major concerns about the impact of absence levels in schools and colleges, and the lower average level of attendance amongst children in receipt of free school meals. The union has called on the Welsh Government for additional funding to allow schools and colleges to help absent learners sitting external examinations to catch up, so that they can succeed in their qualifications and to put them on that pathway for the rest of their lives, as well as employing additional specialist staff, and mental health support and screening to support schools and colleges.
So, is there additional new and adequate funding to support this guidance and what the guidance seeks to prioritise and the calls such as those made by the NEU? I've certainly seen evidence in my casework, and I’m sure that other Members will have seen similar evidence, of how the cost of living and the cost of the school day are a barrier to attendance by some, and the children's commissioner too has clearly stated that the Welsh Government must consider persistent absence in the context of poverty. So, I’d like to know how the taskforce's work engages and aligns with the work on formulating the Government's child poverty strategy. What assessment has been made of the impact of absence on the post-16 sector in terms of the support available to further education colleges to tackle these issues?
Again, the high cost of transport, as well as a lack of availability of transport, have come up frequently in my casework, with the recent Children in Wales report on the seventh annual child and family poverty survey noting that this was among the five issues most frequently cited as having an impact on children and families living in poverty, in rural and in more populous areas. And what was impacted, according to the survey, as a result of this higher cost of transport was school attendance. The survey demonstrated that families reduced the number of days that their children attended school to reduce their costs in terms of public and personal transport. And the Children, Young People and Education Committee heard evidence that the current attendance levels are significantly lower among children in year groups that don't have a right to free transport, namely those children over or under compulsory school age. And even for those who are eligible for free school transport, what I hear on an almost weekly basis in my casework is reflected in the review of the Learner Travel Measure (Wales) 2008, which is currently under way, namely that parents and pupils alike find the current legislative framework to be unsuitable and not fit for purpose in terms of meeting their needs, particularly when no other transport options are available or when transport is unaffordable for many.
So, I'm very pleased that transport is being considered as a factor in the new guidance, but we must remember that not everyone who is in poverty is in receipt of benefits, and we must also consider the impact of other factors, such as disability in terms of learners and their parents, as well as additional learning needs and mental health too. So, how will this guidance ensure that local authorities' additional discretionary powers will be used consistently and fairly across Wales? And will the Minister give us an update on the situation in terms of the review of the Learner Travel Measure (Wales) 2008?
Turning to school uniform, the Children in Wales report also noted that 79 per cent of children and young people are required to wear at least one item of branded school uniform, despite the Welsh Government’s school uniform guidance. On average, unbranded school uniforms cost around £73 per secondary school pupil, compared to around £150 for branded school uniform—over double the price. Being without the correct uniform, as well as having worn or ill-fitting garments, was noted in the report as one of the main reasons why children and young people wouldn't attend school. The issue of school uniform is highlighted by children and young people themselves as a barrier to school attendance—those without the right uniform are more likely to be bullied and penalised, and learners are also sent home for breaking rules on school uniform.
So, do you agree, Minister, that additional steps need to be taken to require and monitor compliance with the Welsh Government's guidance on school uniform? And if so, how do you intend to take those steps? Will you consider the suggestion I have previously made to you, namely a national scheme to promote and support every school to provide second-hand uniforms in a way that normalises such an arrangement and therefore tackles the stigma regarding the use of second-hand clothes? Thank you.

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank Sioned Williams for those questions. The guidance is new, but the focus on absence certainly isn't, and I would agree with the point that NEU Cymru has made in terms of how important this is. I was at their conference on Sunday morning having that very discussion with them, and I thank them for maintaining the focus from their perspectiveon this most important issue.
In terms of the budget that we provide to deal with this, as well as a number of other challenges that came about as a result of COVID, the Member will know that the funding that we've allocated in Wales for that is among the highest in the UK and has been used, and an independent assessment has come to this conclusion, in the most progressive and supportive way of the schemes available in the four nations. So, that is something that we are very proud of. It is a contribution towards some of the important elements that the Member mentioned in her contribution.
In terms of the relationship between absence and poverty and cost-of-living pressures and the taskforce's work and the wider strategy, those links are clear and important. The role of Children in Wales on the taskforce is supporting us in ensuring that that link is clear, but there are others on the taskforce too who have that direct experience. There are a number of things we are doing to ensure that we try and reduce the burden of the cost of the school day on families, such as the co-operative plan of providing free school meals, and that is a recognition of the point that the Member makes that economic and financial difficulties aren't directly and solely determined by receipt of benefits. There are many families who are finding it difficult who don't qualify for benefits, and the policy recognises that fact. The policy that we have in place does ensure that the cost of school uniform is as low as possible, and that is is also a recognition of that. So, there are a number of things that we are doing.
She talked about what was happening in the post-16 sector. We heard, and Luke Fletcher mentioned this earlier in his contribution on another item, that the increase in EMA has ensured that more young people can stay on post 16. That's exactly what we want to see. The guidance published today will certainly tackle the transport element. The work that I am doing with the Deputy Minister in looking again at the learner travel Measure is ongoing. We will be able to make further statements on that in due time.
But just to say that I recognise and agree entirely with the analysis that costs are one of the most important elements in all of this. There are many other elements, some of them related, but what I hope the Member will see in the guidance published today is that broader trend, looking at the whole system in terms of ensuring access to school, and that this goes hand in hand with the range of other things that we're doing as a Government to try and tackle the pressures of the cost of living on the education of our young people.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Chair of the Children, Young People and Education Committee, Jayne Bryant.

Jayne Bryant AC: Diolch, Llywydd, and today I'm speaking in my capacity as the Chair of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We have a very keen interest in the ongoing challenges facing children and young people and their families, schools and local authorities in supporting school attendance and engagement. I really welcome the Minister's statement today, and, as the Minister is aware, we on the Children, Young People and Education Committee published a report with recommendations looking at pupil absence last autumn. Issues around school attendance have also been highlighted in our current inquiry looking at the accessibility and inclusiveness of education and childcare.
Today I'd like to ask the Minister what support will be put in place to ensure that schools, local authorities and other key partners can deliver the guidance consistently across Wales. We're repeatedly hearing of the struggles schools face in balancing their books and having to juggle the many competing needs on their stretched budgets, and I note this was an issue that was also raised in the consultation on the guidance, so I’d welcome reassurance that, in this challenging climate for public finances, schools and local authorities will have the resources to be able to support learners to attend school.
And I’d also like to ask for some more detail about how the guidance will help ensure that children and young people with additional needs are being supported to attend school. We’re hearing some very concerning stories of children not being able to attend school because support or adjustments are not available. Further compounding the impact of the absence, some children are then having very limited contact from their school or local authority while they are off, and we have heard of little or no work being provided to be completed at home and no wider support being offered. And then this lack of support then leads to concerns and anxieties about falling behind, which can further impact on well-being and a learner’s ability to return to the school environment.
So, just a few questions on those points. Diolch.

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank Jayne Bryant for her points on behalf of the committee. The guidance is intended to get to the heart of exactly that set of challenges that she describes in her questions: how can all the various partners who have a role to play in ensuring improved attendance of our young people at school, how they can use their resources in a way that is joined up and not duplicative and mutually supportive and reinforcing in light of the point, which she very properly makes, of the pressure on all public service budgets. It’s really important that guidance and practice ensures alignment across the system, and we can only achieve that by having the kind of joined-up approach that the guidance supports schools and other partners to put in place.
She will know, of course, of the additional funding that we have provided to support family engagement work, but also education welfare work, as well as, more broadly, aspects of the community focused schools policy and the additional learning needs reforms, each of which have had their own significant additional funding, and elements of those policies are able to better support schools and agencies to encourage young people back to school.
She makes an important point in relation to the attendance of learners with additional learning needs. As she knows, we are currently in a programme of reform in this area and that creates additional pressures, together with what I know she will have heard from evidence that the committee has received about an increase in the number of young people presenting in schools with apparently more complex needs. This is creating additional pressures in the system.
She will also know that we recently announced additional funding to support schools to better provide for the needs of learners with additional learning needs, so that parents are not feeling in a position where they have to make some of the choices that she referred to in her questions, and some of that is around improving the fabric of buildings, so upgrading, purchasing new equipment, refurbishment works to improve provision in schools, and that is designed to make sure that schools are able to meet the needs of pupils with additional learning needs more broadly, and she’s absolutely right to say that that is an area on which we must maintain focus as we look at the broader question of attendance.

Jenny Rathbone AC: It’s good to be following Jayne Bryant, because I know the children and young people’s committee have done a lot of work on this. I very much welcome your statement. I think it’s fully comprehensive; I think it deals with the complexity of this issue. You’ve touched on the school transport issues that Sioned Williams mentioned. Genuinely, many families simply cannot afford £400 a year to send their child to school and they simply don’t have the resilience to walk two or three miles, sadly.
I have the privilege to be a governor at a school that really is sector-leading in this regard, but I’m aware of other schools that have a tendency to exclude pupils who are time-consuming and require extra resources. So, I look forward to your staged approach to this, but really every child is entitled to an education, and it won't necessarily be the education that most pupils follow, simply because they may not be able to do that, particularly as I know, Minister, you're aware that some of the traumas of some young people that St Teilo's has managed to keep in school are huge, and it cannot be impossible for any other school to do this if they have the will. So, I hope that we will come to a position eventually where exclusion almost never happens, unless there is a ministerial decision that the circumstances are so grave that that must happen, but it cannot be used as an excuse for simply just getting rid of young people.
This national attendance taskforce—will they look at best practice in how local authorities keep an eye on young people who are allegedly being home educated? Because some of them are working. Some of them are simply not getting any education—it's fairly obvious from just observation. Whilst there are many people who are very dedicated to home educating their children, others are simply doing it for different reasons, and this seems to me an area where we need to ensure that there is best practice by all local authorities.

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you. Both of those issues are absolutely critical. On the question of exclusions, I couldn't agree more with the point that Jenny Rathbone made about—. You know, exclusion is an inappropriate response to the vast majority of circumstances, isn't it, and we have seen an increase in some cohorts in terms of exclusion, but we also need to be mindful of the question of managed moves between schools and hidden exclusions as well—prolonged internal exclusions, if you like, or significant long-term changes to timetabling. All of those can have similar effects to exclusion. So, we'll have more to say in the next few weeks, actually, in terms of the first stage of that refreshed guidance, and then we'll be consulting next year on the fuller guidance. We're also—. For those pupils who need short-term provision other than at school, there's additional work under way in that area on refreshed guidance around how to commission that and the framework from a children's rights point of view of how education other than at school provision should be made available. So, that will be happening at the end of this year and next year as well. And I think these things are very much interlinked, to be clear. I think you can't really address one aspect without seeing the whole, as I know that she will agree.
She's right, the taskforce will be looking at best practice, and I will want them to be drawing inspiration from those local authorities, and there are local authorities who've developed good relationships with the home-educating community, and that is really important, because, as she rightly says, the experience will be widely variable, won't it, in terms of the ability of parents to home educate and provide a suitable education. She will also know of the work that we've done on reissuing statutory guidance in this area, which I think is really important; the development of the database, which will support local authorities in identifying those children who are home educated. We still have a £1.7 million fund in Wales designed to support home educators. The reason that is important is because I want the relationship between schools and home educators to become more porous, so that where families feel they can bring their children back to school they have a path for doing that in a way that is supportive and encouraging, and so we're looking at what more we can do to provide access to exam centres, to Hwb and other resources, alongside, of course, the existing statutory school-based services that home-educating parents are already entitled to. But I think that's a very good example of how we need to look at the complete picture in trying to get to grips with what is a very thorny issue around attendance.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I thank the Minister.

7. Statement by the Minister for Social Justice and Chief Whip: Update on Criminal Justice Blueprints

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The next item will be the statement by the Minister for Social Justice and Chief Whip, an update on criminal justice blueprints. The Minister to make the statement. Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you, Llywydd. Good afternoon.

Jane Hutt AC: Last week, the UK Government announced urgent measures, including a prison early release scheme, in response to acute population pressures across the prison estate. This demonstrates that the long-standing approach to justice of the UK Government needs to be reformed. A different approach is needed. The evidence is clear, we must address the underlying drivers of criminal behaviour and work in a trauma-informed way to support those at risk of offending and prevent crime happening in the first place.

Paul Davies took the Chair.

Jane Hutt AC: In this context, the blueprints for women’s justice and youth justice embody our vision for justice. Through them, we are working with a wide range of partners to support and divert vulnerable people away from crime and towards better futures for themselves, their families and their communities. We published the blueprints in 2019, importantly, in collaboration with His Majesty’s Prison and Probation Service, HMPPS, the Ministry of Justice, Policing in Wales, and the Youth Justice Board for England and Wales. I have had several opportunities to update the Senedd on delivery and, since my last statement in November 2022, there's been more progress to share.
But before I update on our achievements, I want to thank members of the Equality and Social Justice Committee for their report on women's experiences in the criminal justice system. The report made several recommendations that have informed our work, and I will continue to provide updates to the committee on our progress against these.
Turning first to the women's justice blueprint, there is already clear evidence that the blueprint is making a difference. There were 507 immediate custodial sentences of Welsh women in 2019, and this decreased to 288 in 2022. Although there will be many factors driving these headline figures, it is encouraging to see such a positive and defined trend, and we will continue to work to bring numbers down further.
A cornerstone of the blueprint is the women's pathfinder whole-system approach. The pathfinder provides bespoke support for issues such as alcohol and substance misuse and mental health problems, while helping to improve family relationships. Over 2,108 women have been referred into the pathfinder since January 2020 in south Wales and Gwent. We will build on the pathfinder's success by supporting the development of a whole-system approach to working with women across the whole of Wales next year.
The Visting Mums project for Welsh women in HMPs Eastwood Park and Styal—both of which are in England—is helping women maintain and build relationships with their families, a crucial factor in ensuring successful resettlement back into their communities on release. Since the service was launched in July 2021, it has supported 115 women in prison and 130 children in the community.
The Swansea residential women's centre, a vital part of the blueprint, which provides an innovative and rehabilitative new alternative to custody for women, has received planning permission, and I look forward to working with the UK Government to ensure it is open and supporting women from the area as soon as possible. On 16 January I visited the Nelson Trust's women’s centrein Cardiff. Women’s centres provide a community-centred safe space for women to access support and services. Through the blueprint we will continue to work with partners to develop a gold-standard specification for women’s centres and, in the longer term, to explore how provision could be increased across Wales.
Turning to youth justice, over the last 10 years, prevention activities undertaken by youth justice services and partners have significantly reduced the number of young people entering the criminal justice system by over 79 per cent, from over 3,000 in 2011 to under 400 in 2022. Since it was launched in 2019, the youth justice blueprint has delivered a range of work to build on these achievements and further support children and young people.
This includes delivering trauma-informed training to over 300 Welsh justice practitioners and making enhanced case management available to all Welsh youth offending services. This psychology-led, multi-agency approach recognises the trauma young people have experienced, and identifies how to help them build the resilience they need to thrive and live crime-free lives.
This complements the funding provided through our children and communities grant for prevention and diversion work, delivered by youth offending services. The funding helps to break the cycle of disadvantage and inequality, ensuring that young people reach key developmental milestones to attain jobs and wider good health and well-being.
Moving forward, the youth justice blueprint will focus on three priority areas: prevention, pre-court diversion and custody. This will include publishing a prevention framework that, for the first time, will create a single view of what works to prevent offending, and how we're supporting vulnerable children towards fulfilling, crime-free lives. We will also continue to embed trauma-informed practice in the secure estate in Wales, drawing on the trauma-informed Wales framework. I've written to the youth justice board to welcome our collective achievements under the blueprint and to provide a strategic steer that emphasises the importance of a child-first, trauma-informed approach to justice.
We will publish revised implementation plans for both blueprints before the Christmas recess. These will set out the action we will take to build on our achievements and to further deliver on the goals we collectively agreed back in 2019. The new implementation plans will continue to embed the principles of co-production, meaningfully involving those with lived experience in the design and implementation of services and products. We will also continue to deliver work in partnership with other priorities, such as the violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence blueprint and the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan', aligned with the criminal justice anti-racism programme.
Whilst we are achieving change through the blueprints, and will continue to drive this forward, we could achieve even more if we had a fully devolved justice system. That's why we remain committed to pursuing the case for the devolution of justice. Having justice delivered by one Government in Wales, rather than split across the jagged edge between the UK and Welsh Governments, will allow us to embed a truly integrated approach to this area with social justice at its heart. Later in the autumn, my colleague the Counsel General will publish an update against the 'Delivering Justice for Wales' report, which will highlight the progress we're making in this area. Diolch.

Mark Isherwood AC: Well, of course, the reality is that Welsh and UK Government policies on these matters are very closely aligned. The Welsh Government and UK Ministry of Justice published women's justice and youth justice blueprints jointly in May 2019, to improve partnerships between devolved and non-devolved services, developed jointly with HM Prison and Probation Service and the youth justice board. So, will the Minister again confirm that this is about how the two Governments are working together, as she did here when I responded to her statement on justice blueprints last November?Will she also confirm the fact that this aligns with the UK Government's female offender strategy, to divert vulnerable offenders away from short prison sentences, and with the UK Government's youth justice strategy, to catch and prevent youth offending earlier than ever?
Will the Minister join me in welcoming the positive long-term trends confirmed by the annual youth justice statistics for England and Wales, published in January, showing that the number of children entering the justice system for the first time and the number of children in custody reached all-time lows, and that reoffending had also decreased to the lowest level on record, although this is likely to have been impacted in England and Wales by pandemic restrictions? And, will the Minister join me in welcoming the statement in the Youth Justice Board for England and Wales annual report and accounts for 2022-23 that the number of children entering the youth justice system cautioned or sentenced has continued to reduce?
However, what consideration has she given to their statement that those that the system works with are likely to be children with more persistent and troubled behaviours? The Youth Justice Board for England and Wales consequently focus on building multi-agency collaboration, including with health and education services, as well as the voluntary and community sectors—key. The youth justice blueprint for Wales states that options will be explored to align preventative services offered to children, including those targeted at reducing the number of looked-after children, the prevention of school exclusions, and homelessness services, of course, which are the responsibility of the Welsh Government, to prevent children from entering the criminal justice system in the first place. How, therefore, does the Minister propose to reconcile this with the reality that, after running the show since 1999, Wales has the highest proportion of children in the UK in care, and one of the highest proportions of children looked after by any state in the world?
The Senedd Equality and Social Justice Committee found that young people with speech, language and communication needs in Wales are not being given enough support as they navigate through the justice system, something first raised by the Royal College of Speech and Language Therapists here some two decades ago—I was party to that report—where 60 per cent of young people involved with the youth justice system have speech, language and communication needs, despite making up just 10 per cent of young people as a whole. Despite the High Court ruling in 2018 that the exclusion of an autistic pupil for behaviour arising from their autism was unlawful, this is still happening in Wales. And 3,350 dependent children under 16 in Wales are in temporary accommodation—a third in hotels and bed and breakfasts.
His Majesty's Prison and Probation Service in Wales, and Welsh Government's October 2022 'Evaluability assessment for the Wales Women's Justice and Youth Justice Blueprints', called for expansion of the women's offending evidence base and recommended developing a sufficiently resourced multi-agency performance and monitoring framework prior to any evaluation. So, what action has the Minister therefore since taken regarding this?
Although it was the UK Government that published a female offender strategy to divert vulnerable female offenders away from short prison sentences wherever possible; invest in community services; and establish five pilot residential women's centres, including one in Wales, it was the Minister here, for social justice, who subsequently wrote to Members announcing that one of these centres would be near Swansea. What due diligence did the Minister undertake beforehand, where Swansea's planning committee subsequently refused this and it's only due to go ahead now after appeal? And how will this help vulnerable women offenders in north Wales to access the services they need, and their families, closer to home, when, for example, the distance from Wrexham to Swansea is 133 miles, but only 50 miles to HMP Styal women's prison?
Finally, how do you account for the data in the Equality and Social Justice Committee report on women's experiences in the criminal justice system, showing—? I don't know why you're laughing, Alun Davies. This is pretty damn serious stuff. How do you account for the data in the Equality and Social Justice Committee report on women's experiences in the criminal justice system, showing that, in the South Wales Police force area, the prison rate was more than four times higher than in the lowest region in the prison's catchment area in England, when the Welsh Government itself is responsible for the services in Wales that should be intervening early and preventing imprisonment?

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Mark Isherwood. As you say, the women's justice blueprint is a joint initiative between the Welsh Government, HMPPS and also with other partners, such as HM Courts and Tribunals Service, which is very closely involved. And, of course, we have a responsibility to work together to transform outcomes for women and young people, as we do through the youth justice blueprint as well. We have that responsibility to deliver those services in Wales and, indeed, we have learned a great deal, not just in terms of delivery of those blueprints and services that actually meet the needs of women and young people caught up in the justice system in Wales, but also in line with our particular values and objectives in Wales to achieve these, which, of course, are very bespoke to Wales and to the Welsh Government and our partners.
You know, I am very pleased that we were really at the forefront of being able to come forward with an agreement to pilot the residential women's centre, and this is something where we've worked to ensure that we do have an alternative for women who have been locked up in prisons outside of Wales. Many of those women are victims; trauma-informed policy shows us that they should not be in prison, and, of course, we acknowledge that it was recognised in terms of the statement issued by the justice Secretary on 16 October. We have those responsibilities for devolved areas in terms of those prison provisions, and we have to make sure that we can influence those in terms of education and health, and there are many ways in which we do. But I do believe that the residential women's centre will provide that holistic, trauma-informed support for women, and provide an alternative to those disruptive and unnecessary custody services.
Indeed, actually, I wrote to the Secretary of State for Justice on 5 October, prior to Alex Chalk's statement on the sixteenth. I wrote to him to say that we don't support an increase in prison places; we were not aware of what was coming forward in terms of his statement. I said we believe in a more preventative approach to justice that addresses the cause of offending, diverts people away from custody, and I reinforced the Welsh Government's position on this matter.
Just in terms, also, of the points and issuesthat you raise in terms of youth justice, I gave those figures in my statement about how early intervention and prevention activities carried out by our youth justice services and partners in our communities in Wales have significantly reduced the numbers of young people entering the criminal justice system. Just to repeat, the number of first-time entrants into the youth justice system falls year on year in Wales, from over 3,000 young people in 2011 to under 400 in 2021. But that has been done because of the commitment, the skills and the experience of our youth offending teams in Wales, and their support for children through voluntary and statutory contact. Our approach—the psychology-led, multi-agency approach—recognises the trauma young people have experienced, and enables them to develop the resilience they need to thrive and live crime-free lives.
Our youth justice prevention framework, the first one of its kind, will also be underpinned by the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, supporting a range of work to improve how prevention works in practice. So, yes, we have our relationships with justice partners, and we're proud of those relationships we've built, but when it comes to justice—and this, of course, is reflected in our case for devolving justice to Wales, and we are now moving towards preparing for the devolution particularly of youth justice and probation—it's essential we work with our partners to encourage and deliver change. And that's what we will deliver in terms of devolving justice to Wales.
I think it's important to reflect on the 'Delivering Justice for Wales' statement. It was a joint statement with the Counsel General back in May. We set out a track record, didn't we, of justice-related activity, the work we're doing to improve outcomes in areas of the justice system already devolved to Wales, and areas that interface with the justice system. But only through aligning justice policies with our wider pursuit of social justice will we really truly deliver the improvements needed to the justice system. And, above all, that means reducing pressures on the system, which can only be done through achieving social justice. We believe that focusing on those justice functions will help us to reduce the jagged edge of devolution.

Sioned Williams AS: From our overcrowded prison services to the shocking inequalities in our criminal justice system to the violation of Welsh children's rights, the state of justice in Wales is presently not fit for purpose and is harming Welsh people, and certain groups in particular, within the criminal justice system. The numerous reports, books and commissions that have detailed and evidenced the effect of the conflicting powers and responsibilities that trap some of our most vulnerable citizens in an inhumane and dysfunctional judicial no-man's-land are an indictment of a lack of action and political will to take a person-centred and fully accountable approach to justice, and is a call to action to Governments in Wales and Westminster present and future.
Plaid Cymru continues to call for the full devolution of justice in Wales. It's the only way we can ensure a system that embodies our vision for justice—one of diversion and support, of early intervention and prevention. As a member of the Equality and Social Justice Committee, the damning findings of our report into women's experiences in the criminal justice system will remain with me until this happens. And the failures and harms of the present system, which it clearly highlighted, will continue to be visited on women who are, for the most part, victims of crime.
From the cruelly short prison sentences, which offer no opportunity for rehabilitation, but plenty of opportunity to wreck lives, to the devastating impact on Welsh mothers and their children of being incarcerated hundreds of miles from home, do you agree, Minister, that the current situation is fundamentally unjust, unsustainable and in direct conflict with the approach of your Government to criminal justice? And, if so, how will you ensure that if your party comes to power in Westminster, you will not be satisfied with a piecemeal approach to devolving justice for the sake of these Welsh women?
On women's centres, the Government agreed with our committee's recommendation on strengthening this type of provision, but you didn't commit to more funding, only that it would be considered in future budget rounds. So, can you update us as to the investment the Government is willing to make in women's centres, as the budget is almost upon us? 
Another inquiry I was a part of as a member of the Equality and Social Justice Committee was into speech, language and communication needs in the youth justice system, and Mark Isherwood touched on the issues there, where it's highlighted that a minimum of 60 per cent of children and young people in the criminal justice system have speech, language and communication needs, and it could be as much as 90 per cent—that's what our committee inquiry found. In examining the reasons behind this difference, the committee's main conclusion was that the support available for these young people is insufficient and inconsistent across Wales. The access to speech and language therapy support must therefore be improved and made consistent, to help prevent these young people from finding themselves in a situation that could completely alter the course of their lives, which means there’s not fair access to justice.
Given the Government rejected recommendations to work with local authorities to ensure speech and language therapists are embedded in all youth offending teams in Wales, and by working with police and crime commissioners through the youth justice blueprint to ensure speech and language therapists from the health service are embedded in custody suites in police stations, I’d like to know how progress has been made to address this unacceptable situation.
Finally, I would like an update on action to address the worrying violation of children’s rights that were highlighted by the Children’s Commissioner for England report earlier this year, which showed there were 134 strip searches of children in Wales by the police between 2018 and 2022, with South Wales Police strip-searching 108 children, a figure above the national average for England and Wales. The Children’s Legal Centre Wales argues that strip-searching of children is a violation of children’s rights, is contrary to our nation’s commitment to the UNCRC, and to Wales-only legislation that promotes children’s rights. Following the shocking case of child Q, the Independent Office for Police Conduct last month called for a substantial review of policing powers under the laws relating to the strip searches of children, to improve safeguarding and prioritise the welfare of minors. What information have you received regarding that review, Minister? And without the full devolution of powers on justice and policing to Wales, how, Minister, do you propose we uphold our children’s rights? Diolch.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Sioned Williams. Can I at this point reflect on the Senedd Equality and Social Justice Committee's important report? I'm sure we'll hear more of this this afternoon. It was a vital report, I would say, on the evidence gained on women's experience in the criminal justice system. It does put a spotlight on the areas of justice for women and girls, highlighting many of the needs and vulnerabilities that women face in the system, but also, as I said earlier on, and as you said, it did highlight that many women in the justice system are victims themselves, and should be considered as such.
When the Counsel General and I visited HMP Eastwood Park, that’s basically what the governor said to us. She said, 'The majority of women in this prison are victims'—domestic violence, substance misuse, poverty. And that’s where the short-term sentences have often had such an adverse impact on not just the lives of the women—actually, I heard an item just this week about the fact that it’s the family, the children. Yes, we have funded our Visiting Mum scheme. We met a grandmother, in fact, in Eastwood Park who was benefiting particularly from the work that’s done in the community. But this person came from west Wales, and how much better would it have been if her daughter had been in a residential women’s centre with that holistic care and rehabilitation, training and skills, and close connection with her family?
But I do want to focus on the fact that—and Mark Isherwood made the point as well—on non-residential women’s centres and keeping women out of the justice system, a key priority in the women’s justice blueprint is to support centres such as the north Wales women’s centre in Rhyl, the Nelson centre in Cardiff—I’ve mentioned that—providing those services to support, manage and overcome some of those barriers and issues and trauma that have been an impact in terms of their lives, and the trauma and experience of their lives. And also just seeing what those centres can offer and what they can mean for those women and, indeed, their families and children.
I also think that we need to look at what we have achieved as a result of our responsibilities in Wales. I think if you look to our commitment to supporting women who are in custody, the provision of healthcare—they are prisons outside of Wales—including substance misuse is the responsibility of NHS England. But we supported the national implementation of Buvidal in response to COVID-19 and this support extends to the criminal justice system here in Wales. We were the first UK nation to implement this treatment option and now 1,400 service users across Wales are benefiting from this.
It's not a barrier any more for Welsh women accessing Buvidal in Eastwood Park or Styal. I think that actually addresses some of the issues that the committee raised, and we were glad to confirm this vital step forward. The work that we are doing in Wales, I think, is underpinned by our values, our commitment to social justice, within a social justice approach to criminal justice in Wales. That includes all of the work that we're doing in terms of employability for people in justice.
I think it's also important to acknowledge the Equality and Social Justice Committee report on speech, language and communication needs in the youth justice system. We recognise that vital need and I'm glad that there's a summit with key stakeholders to look specifically at the impact of speech and language on children and the link to the involvement of those most involved with the youth justice system. That's going to take place in December this year.
I will also respond to your point about strip searches of children and young people. Policing is not yet devolved to Wales. It's the responsibility of the UK Government, but we've taken this issue of strip searching of children and young people very seriously. It's potentially extremely traumatic and every case has to be fully justified, appropriately conducted and used as a last resort. So, I have met with the police and crime commissioners and policing in Wales have agreed to undertake a data-mapping exercise to improve data and assurance available on this issue, and for us to identify further action to be taken. But also, again, in the links to our wider social justice policies, this is very relevant to the anti-racist Wales action plan. So, I have asked for information on ethnicity and the number of searches undertaken.
I think, just finally, we are moving forward. As I said, the biggest benefits come with the devolution of the whole of the justice system. We remain committed to pursuing the case for devolution of justice in its entirety, and the scale of the justice system does, of course, mean that, in practice, you have staged devolution. On devolving youth justice and probation, I've already said in response to Gordon Brown's commission that we are not just making the case, we're preparing for them to be devolved. Diolch.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to the Minister for the statement she's brought to us this afternoon. It's always a disappointment to hear the Conservative spokesperson rereading speeches from yesteryear. Once was probably enough to hear them. It isn't sufficient, in a bizarre intellectual conclusion, to actually manage to blame the Welsh Government for the failures of the UK criminal justice system. But I do agree with him in the failures he described. And the sooner that this system is devolved to Wales the better, because we will then see the sorts of improvements that the Minister reported on in her contribution, in her statement today. And it's very good to see the Welsh Government interventions in the system having a real impact on real people.
I think everybody who has been involved at any level in the criminal justice system leaves that involvement with a profound sense of unease that people are being treated in this way in our communities, in our country, in our society today. And of all the things I've witnessed in this place, I think the treatment of women in the criminal justice system stands out as being profoundly wrong, and I'm glad that the Welsh Government is beginning the job of changing that and affecting that.
I know I'm running short of time, acting Chair, but I'm hoping that you're going to be generous. I'd like the Minister, if she could, to explain how the women's centre that we expect to be built near Swansea will be managed; how the Welsh Government will work with the United Kingdom authorities and with local government and the NHS to deliver services there; how you see the development of youth justice policy alongside youth policy to ensure that we have a more seamless approach to protecting the futures of young people; and finally, we know that the probation service has suffered enormous problems since privatisation, but privatisation of probation was as close to a criminal act in itself that you can imagine. How do you see the future of the probation service now, given that women and young people will both be affected by the failures of that system in the past? I'm grateful to the acting Chair.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Alun Davies, and thank you for not only your commitment today and your questions to me today, but your commitment in this area of policy and your commitment to seeing justice for women in terms of this crucial policy area, and your influence in terms of the development, early development, of the women's justice blueprint and youth justice blueprint.
As you say, the failures of the criminal justice system are clear. What better case can there be for devolving justice to Wales? But you asked a specific question of the residential women's centre. As I've said, the centre will provide that trauma-informed, holistic support for women and provide that alternative—which now the UK Government has finally recognised—to disruptive and unnecessary custody sentences. And so I do welcome—the First Minister also acknowledged this earlier on today—the statement about the fact that there is going to be this reduction on short—presuming against short custodial sentences of 12 months or less. You can do nothing except destroy a woman's life in sentences of less than 12 months, let alone the needs of her children and family. And as I've said, I've written to the Secretary of State for Justice to welcome the decision, but, then, we need to get on with our residential women's centre. That will be delivered in partnership, of course, but delivered by our now national probation service in Wales, and it's going to provide support for vulnerable women in the criminal justice system, or those at risk of entering the criminal justice system. Of course, it is a pilot; it's the first of its kind in the UK. We are confident that we can deliver it to help avoid those disruptive and unnecessary custodial sentences. I'm glad it's going to be based in the Swansea area. It's going to be innovational, testing out the new approach, but we have a long-term aspiration to embed alternatives to custody across Wales as a whole—which, of course, responds to the earlier question from Mark about north Wales—and to ensure that, actually, it's across Wales to ensure women can then also access devolved services, such as mental health and substance misuse support in an integrated way.
Finally, just to say, in terms of our next steps, both youth justice and probation are candidates for devolution, as I've said, because of their proximity to existing devolved areas, effective probation services. They need to work closely, don't they, with social services, healthcare providers, among other local delivered services. So, we're preparing for the devolution of youth justice, probation and policing. We're working on the practicalities—and that's important—of devolution in these areas: what exactly should be devolved; how we would use our new responsibilities; what are the costs and capability? And, of course, I think this is about reform. It's not a conversation about powers, it's a conversation about how we produce the best outcomes for people living in Wales, and women and young people in particular.

Paul Davies AC: And finally, Jenny Rathbone.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you very much. And thank you, Minister, for pursuing this issue like a dog with a bone. I can see your passion and your determination to succeed where other Governments have failed, actually, because the Corston report was published in 2007 and we are still a very long way from her vision of how we better deal with women in the criminal justice system.
I'm very pleased to hear that the Swansea women's centre has received planning permission and I look forward to hearing how that's going to work, but, as you say, we need women's centres close enough to where women live to ensure that every community has the option to receive support, to not continue being involved in the criminal justice system. But as a result of the initiative on the women's criminal blueprint, we can say that 319 women have not been sent to prison, and that is a real achievement.
In terms of the work that the Government is doing to follow up on our report on people with speech, language and communication difficulties, clearly, some of this relates to the non-attendance discussions that we had with the Minister for education earlier this afternoon. I just wondered what has been done to really share the good practice going on in Neath Port Talbot, where, because they have speech and language therapists in the youth justice team, they are able to fully identify not just 60 per cent of young people but 79 per cent of young people involved in the youth justice system there.
I appreciate there's a real difficulty, where there are only 800 speech and language therapists in Wales, and they're needed in many aspects of our work. But in order to increase that number, we obviously, at the moment, need to engage with the UK Government. So, is the UK Government clear that it's simply not possible to interview a young person if they have no understanding of what is happening or why they're being brought before the youth justice system? And is thereanything else you're able to say at this stage on increasing the number of speech and language therapists that we have available?

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Jenny Rathbone. I do look always to the Jean Corston report back in 2007, as you say, to look for the guidance and the evidence that underpins so much of our policy. Thank you for your committee inquiry and your report and recognition of the positive impact on the women's pathfinder approach, particularly.
I will answer the point about the recommendations on the speech and language and community needs in the youth justice system. I've mentioned the fact that we're having this summit with key stakeholders. I think the evidence in places like Neath Port Talbot, where you see the benefit of that intervention, in terms of speech and language therapists, will come through. It will be a good 'practise what works' summit, I'm sure.
Also, to finally to say that we are funding speech and language therapists, as you know, in every Flying Start service in Wales. It's consistent across Wales, for Flying Start beneficiaries. Of course, that's actually being increased now as we expand Flying Start. So, there's more access to speech and language support for the communication needs of those children. It also means that we are identifying and supporting children and young people earlier and more effectively, because identifying speech and language and communication needs can, of course, be an all-important intervention in terms of the future of their lives. So, we are already seeing other policy initiatives making that impact. Thank you for those comments.

Paul Davies AC: I thank the Minister.

8. Statement by the Minister for Climate Change: Welsh Housing Quality Standard 2023

Paul Davies AC: We'll move on now to item 8, which is a statement by the Minister for Climate Change. I call on the Minister to make the statement—Julie James.

Julie James AC: Diolch. Today I'm introducing the Welsh housing quality standard 2023, building on the excellent achievements of its predecessor, which all social homes in Wales have now achieved. This new standard will continue to drive up the quality of social housing in Wales, once again raising the bar for social housing.
The new standard is bold. It is deliberately demanding, because I am determined that social housing in Wales delivers low-carbon, high-quality homes for tenants that are safe, affordable to heat, and fit for the twenty-first century and beyond. But it is also achievable. Everyone accepts that living in a quality home brings multiple benefits to both the physical and mental well-being of those who live in them, and the standard’s 44 elements will ensure our social homes deliver those benefits.
The 2020s have already brought rapid and unexpected change, not least with a global pandemic fundamentally changing how people live and work, and what they need from a home. Social justice and equality issues, such as broadband access and flooring provision, building safety and the ability to live safely and securely in homes, have become even more paramount. Appreciation of our homes is higher than ever, which is why this new standard is so firmly focused on tenants.
As the Minister for Climate Change, it will come as no surprise that I have made decarbonisation of our social housing stock a central theme for this new standard. Decarbonisation of housing is one of our top priorities. Through the work on social homes, we can learn how to effectively and efficiently upgrade homes in ways that reduce tenants' energy bills as well as carbon emissions.What we learn upgrading the 230,000 social homes in Wales will drive how we as a nation tackle decarbonising the 1.2 million privately owned homes in Wales.
Our new standard for existing social housing set the ambition of energy performance certificate A or standard assessment procedure 92 or greater in the future. This aligns with the social housing new-build standard that I introduced two years ago. To deliver that ambition, we are going to have to get there in stages. The first stage of that journey in the new standard is for social landlords to undertake whole-stock assessments to gain a home-by-home understanding of the work needed. The next stage will be for landlords to produce a plan for each home to reach EPC A, which is what will be called the targeted energy pathway. This provides alignment with our existing optimised retrofit programme.
This is a long-term standard and therefore it is right that we put checkpoints along the way. The requirement in the new standard is for all social landlords to achieve EPC C orSAP 75 by 2029.Under this new standard, EPC Cor SAP 75, will ensure that all social tenants experience affordable warmth, not just those who secure a new-build social home. The standard is about much more than decarbonisation and affordable warmth, though, it introduces a new flooring element into the standard, which means that, at change of tenancy, all habitable rooms, staircases and landings located within the home should have suitable floor coverings. As well as making the home more comfortable for a new tenant and improving insulation, this has the added benefit of reducing unnecessary waste from removing perfectly suitable flooring when a tenancy comes to an end, which is the default current practice.
On the issue of damp and mould, the standard provides additional clarity based on the learning from the tragic case in Rochdale of Awaab Ishak. The standard makes clear the requirement of social landlords that homes must be free from damp, including persistent condensation. There are 13 elements within this new standard that are either new or revised, and landlords will need to start the process of becoming compliant with these elements from 1 April 2024. We're taking a pragmatic approach to these changes, with a number of elements being realised at change of tenancy. This will ensure there is a process of phasing in elements over a period of time to assist social landlords with programme costs. In addition, new elements, such as the whole-stock assessment and targeted energy pathways mentioned earlier, will need to be completed within a three-year period. The cost of meeting new elements relating to affordable warmth and decarbonisation can be funded from social landlords' optimised retrofit programme budget allocations. I know the sector has expressed concerns about the cost of meeting the standard during the consultation phase, and that concerns persist in terms of financing our ambitions for decarbonising the social housing sector. And so along with core funding streams, such as the major repairs allowance, providing over £60 million to local authorities annually, and dowry funding of over £43 million to the large-scale voluntary transfer housing associations annually, we have the optimised retrofit programme providing £270 million over this term of Government to social housing. However, to provide further support, I intend to make available a further £22.5 million across this year and next, targeted at supporting social housing, meeting the Welsh housing quality standard 2023.
Over the next year, my officials will work with the sector to ensure that future funding best supports the ongoing work to meet the standard, as well as supporting innovation. This new standard has been developed in collaboration with stakeholders and across departments over a two-year period. It also contains elements that align with our circular economy principles, active travel, biodiversity and water efficiency, to contribute to our Government climate change goals, as set out in the Net Zero Wales plan. I am confident that it is the right standard, at the right time, but implementation will not be without its challenges.
As a Government, we will work collaboratively with the sector, in the same way we have developed the standard to overcome these challenges. I am committed to a review of the standard within three years, enabling us to take account of what the whole-stock surveys are telling us. The scale of the challenge of upgrading social housing is extensive. The new standard is bold and achievable, and it is deliberately demanding. However, we have done it before, and together with our social landlords, we can do it again. We need to be pragmatic and rise to the challenge, because our Welsh tenants are counting on us. Diolch.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Well, Minister, thank you for this statement. You'll be pleased to hear me speak in support of the Welsh housing quality standard and, indeed, your statement.Certainly, I can remember when we had the housing stock transfer, and it's fair to say that, without the housing quality standard that you put in place then, at that time—. A lot of that stock was really behind the times in terms of good kitchens, good bathrooms, insulated, double-glazing. And I think your standard in the past has been a proven winner.
I don't think a single Member in this Chamber would disagree with me in saying that improving the quality of our registered social homes in Wales is a commendable target and one that must be achieved. There is no doubt that the standard should result in social housing of a higher quality that is affordable to heat and fit for the twenty-first century and beyond, and also to rule out any fuel poverty.
Earlier this year, concerns were raised in Wrexham that the Welsh Government housing quality standard, however, was actually hindering the authority from reducing the housing waiting list, but I imagine, Minister, that you've actually taken this into consideration, because we all know of registered social landlords where, when they get a void, you expect—. We have so many people wanting homes that people think if a house comes empty, 'I can have that house', when, usually, it's either allocated to somebody else or it's void for a number of months because they just simply cannot put the basic refitting programmes in place. So, now, asking for the extra, additional retrofitting, we've got to be sure that this doesn't cause longer term homes to be empty, if you know what I mean.
I do have concerns about extra resourcing for retrofitting, but £22 million—how has that figure been arrived at and do you think you can achieve what you want to achieve with that figure? Will you discuss with social housing providers the possibility of fast-tracking works to empty properties so that this standard doesn't become a barrier to properties becoming homes?
I'm concerned about the lack of skills in Wales, Minister. Obviously, these people working on these kinds of retrofitting programmes, we would hope they will be registered with the right qualifications, and yet, currently, we've got a skills shortage in our everyday joiners, plumbers, electricians. So, it's an even bigger ask that we need these skills in place to be able to carry out this work appropriately.
This financial year, you have committed, as you say, to providing a further £22.5 million this year and next targeted at supporting social housing meeting WHQS 2023. How will your funding be shared? Have you reached out and collated data from each local authority already as to what is required in terms of putting their registered social landlord properties back up to scratch? I'm eager to see whether the £22.5 million is going to be a step in the right direction or just a drop in the ocean. You have advised that we can learn from upgrading the 230,000 social houses in Wales, but how will that drive forward the nation tackling decarbonising the 1.2 million privately owned homes or owner-occupied? I guess I should declare an interest, because I am an owner-occupier, as everybody probably knows.
Whilst further progress is set, Public Health Wales have published some research saying that the cost of cold homes is around £95 million in terms of the cost to the Welsh NHS. Care and Repair Cymru have advised that, for every £1 spent on housing adaptations, we can save the Welsh NHS around £7.50. So, will you provide a little bit more information today about steps you are taking to help residents in owner-occupied properties? I understand that you've got to start somewhere, and you're starting with the registered social sector, but we're all in our constituencies going to be asked, 'Well, how will you help owner-occupiers?' How soon do you expect lessons from the implementation of the new standard to be learnt and influence schemes to help residents living in owner-occupied homes? Thank you.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Janet. Starting at the back end and going in reverse order through the questions you asked me, we're already working with the Development Bank of Wales on a pilot project for the owner-occupied sector, looking at loans for the people who could pay, but perhaps need help upfront with that. We're also putting in support for private landlords in decarbonising their properties, which is a tie-in between leasing scheme Wales and the optimised retrofit programme. So, houses entering the leasing scheme Wales under the tie-in are eligible for grant funding to improve the energy efficiency of the property as part of leasing scheme Wales. So, we’re obviously trying to encourage people to come into that if their home does need upgrading. And there are also some wider impacts—for example, we’ve got a minimum energy efficiency standard that applies in the private rented sector. That’s not devolved, though; it’s controlled by the UK Government and they’ve already made some announcements requiring landlords to upgrade energy efficiency off the back of it.
In terms of the funding share, of the optimised retrofit programme funding, there’s £70 million available this year and another £70 million next. That’s already in place; the £22.5 million is additional to that. There’s a funding formula for that; the funding formula has been agreed with registered social landlords, across the stock-owning councils and the RSLs, and it will be distributed accordingly.
In terms of skills, we will deliberately overskill the programme, so, working with my colleague Vaughan Gething, in the apprenticeship programme, we’ll be able to put a number of apprentices in place. It’s a very good route to an apprenticeship, because, obviously, it allows you to have a decent employer, and we’ll also be working with the local authorities to facilitate that as well, and the idea is to overskill the sector, so that there are enough skills to make a market in it, and we’re very confident that that will work. We know that, because we’ve trialled it in both the innovative housing programme and the optimisedretrofit programme already. Vaughan and I have been working for some years on making sure that those skills work out.
And then in terms of voids to turnover, we have very strict agreements with our RSLs and our social stock-owning councils about the number of voids they’re allowed to have and the turnover. It’s one of the things that they’re judged on, and we work very hard with them to make sure the voids turn over as fast as possible. But, obviously, you’re quite right, we expect the voids to be brought to standard, so it’s at the change of tenancy that we expect the new standard to be applied. But that shouldn’t take any more time in doing this, and, of course, when you go into a new home, with the new energy efficiency, the new flooring standards—and there will be water butts as part of this, for example—then we’ll have a much more efficient home, and the tenants will be therefore much more able to pay their bills and to sustain their tenancy.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: I welcome the ambition of ensuring that every tenant has a quality home that enables them to live with dignity and safety, but, despite the vision, we are a long way from reaching that aim.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: I maintain that the Welsh Government should embed the right to adequate housing in Welsh law, as it would drive the change we need to see in Wales. I’d encourage the Minister to support this aim, which would then set the tone for all future housing policy.
Things have improved since the inception of the Wales housing quality standard in 2002, but the stark reality is that there isn’t enough social housing as it stands, that many residents in social housing suffer from fuel poverty, and that the Government must accelerate their efforts if they are to reach their 20,000 target.
But looking to the announcement today—and I have a number of questions to the Minister—I think an overlooked risk is that we aren’t building for the future, whether we’re talking about demographics or about climate risks. Are we building houses that will have to be retrofitted again in a few years’ time, for instance? Or are they easily adaptable for people with mobility issues? So, does the Minister believe that the standard that the Government hopes to deliver is fit for future generations and for our future planet? Mould and damp still impact on far too many households, with drastic health consequences. The new standard states that homes must be free from damp, but many social houses of a certain period currently have mould and damp, and the cost of renovating all of these municipal houses will be significant. We’ve heard that they are expected to reach EPC standard C by 2029, so when does the Minister expect us to reach a point where our municipal houses don’t have damp or mould in them?
Low-temperature housing is also a matter of great concern. What measures are being taken to ensure that all residents have access to adequate heating and insulation, thus preventing the suffering and health issues associated with substandard living conditions? By when does the Minister envision that home heating will be truly affordable for all? The new standard says heating systems must be reasonably economical. Can the Minister define what is reasonably economical?
The assessment reason codes, if achieved, will set high standards, which are to be welcomed. Last year, I highlighted that almost 55,000 of the public housing stock in Wales were deemed acceptable fails. This was almost a quarter of the public housing stock. I see from the new standards that the term ‘acceptable fail' has gone, and we now have a ‘temporary fail’ and a ‘conditional pass’. But being cost prohibitive continues to be an acceptable reason for a temporary fail or a conditional pass. This reason, or excuse, could presumably be for an unspecified period of time. So, can the Minister tell us for how long can a housing organisation claim that the cost of upgrading a poor home is prohibitive? Can the Minister give us an assurance that the change in terminology isn't just a way to fudge or massage the figures? How long can a home be deemed a temporary fail or have a conditional pass before something must be done?
The assessment reason codes are also numerous and set a higher bar than previously, which, again, is to be welcomed. Achieving these targets will be costly, so what funding support is the Minister planning, especially in the current financial climate, to help housing associations to achieve these targets, and when does she hope that they will be achieved? While I understand that these will be implemented over time, does the Minister believe that setting these new high standards will impact on our ability to reach the 20,000 new social houses, considering that much of the housing associations' budgets will now be reallocated to renovate and retrofit? And if they don't achieve these targets and remain as a conditional pass or a temporary fail, then what penalty will be issued?
Data on social housing standards has not been updated for some time, so when can we expect to see the most up-to-date data on the quality of our municipal houses, and when can we expect to see new data on the assessment reason codes?
Finally, the Minister has stated numerous times that building 20,000 new social homes is ambitious. So far, we are a long way away from that target. Now, housing associations will also be expected to reach new, higher standards. For many, it will be more than a simple renovation. So, £275 million, as we heard today, won't be enough. An entire rebuild project will be required in some cases. Housing associations have a limited income, so does the Minister believe that these new targets are genuinely achievable? What does the Minister think is most important: achieving these standards or building new homes? Because, with the low level of funding from the Government, it's difficult to see how both can be achieved. Or are our social housing associations being set up to fail? So, can we expect to see a significant uplift in the funding of social housing over the coming years, over and above what has been announced today? Diolch.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Mabon. I think that was 21 questions, so I'll do my best, but I might be a bit restricted for time, depending on the acting Deputy Presiding Officer's tolerance of it. So, I'll do my best. On the right to adequate housing, obviously, I agree with that; I absolutely agree we should put the right to adequate housing in law. We have a pathway set out for that. I've always been very clear that, in my view, that's a sequential thing to do, because we need to make sure that it's an actionable right that people can rely on, and we can't do that until we've got the stock in place, and I think that's the right way around. I know other views exist, but that's always been my view and, as you know, we're working together on the co-operation agreement to follow that pathway. So, I'm sure we will get there—well, I'm confident we will get there.
In terms of the several questions that you asked about heating, mould, damp, more retrofitting and so on, what we're doing here is learning very much from the innovative housing programme and the optimised retrofit programme we've been running now for nearly five years—the IHP slightly longer than that. So, we've got a wealth of data coming out about what works in what kind of house, and we've been very clear that we've wanted to do that so that we understand what's possible in each type of house. I've just said as part of the statement as well that we'll be doing a whole housing stock survey. So, within three years, we will have a very, very good idea of what each social landlord has as part of their stock.
So, the answer to your other question, therefore, as to what do the acceptable fails look like et cetera, is that we will know what's acceptable or not because we will have the data and we will know what's possible on the house and we will know what the average cost of that is, so we will have a much better idea than we did when we started the first WHQS what that's likely to cost. So, as I said, we'll review it after three years, we'll be able to adjust the funding formula accordingly, and we will have a very good idea.
Some of the old acceptable fails, just to say, are for cultural and heritage purposes as well. We have to be cognisant of the fact that some homes are protected or listed or are in conservation areas or whatever, and we don't want to disrupt that either, but we do want to make them comfortable homes for people to live in. And I just want to be really clear that 'no mould or damp' is part of the current standard as well. So, we're just re-emphasising it because of the tragedy that we saw in Rochdale, but it is there now. So, if you do think that a registered social landlord is having those kinds of problems, do please write to me because there are things that can be done about that already.
The terminology has been changed because people didn't understand it, so we've tried to make it more accessible, really, so people understand that it's a temporary fail because we've accepted that there's some issue with it, but we do expect it to be addressed in future. Or it's an acceptable fail—I've forgotten what we've called it now; I've confused myself—for a cultural and heritage reason, for example, so we're accepting that that's the case.
In terms of financial support, we have whole different funding streams for the rebuild. It's part of the rent settlement agreement that we make with our registered social landlords right across the piece. I do not expect this to impact on that programme at all. What we're doing here is making sure that tenants who are in existing housing have the same standard of living as the people who are going into the new build. So, we've been unapologetic about the standards of the new build. I've heard the argument many times that we could build more houses if we built them to a lower standard, but then we have to retrofit them, so the longer term cost is not acceptable.
And then on the last point you made on data, we expect to have a lot more data once we've got the whole-stock assessments done. We'll be assisting both our stock-holding councils and our RSLs to do that, and that's why the review will be in three years when we've got that data in place.

Mike Hedges AC: I very much welcome the statement by the Minister, and I very much welcome that this new standard will continue to drive up the quality of social housing. As someone brought up in a council house, I have never believed those of us living in council houses should live in cold properties that are very expensive to heat. Living in a quality home improves health, educational outcomes and the quality of life. I welcome the requirements for social landlords to undertake whole-stock assessments, to gain a home-by-home understanding of the work that's needed. Then, for landlords to produce a plan for each home to reach EPC A. Will the Minister, as a first priority, set an expectation that no social housing should have mould or damp, and if it has mould or damp that it is dealt with immediately, and that damp is not dismissed as condensation? I think many people who—

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Would you take an intervention?

Mike Hedges AC: I would, but you're not allowed to on a statement.

Paul Davies AC: No, no, no—order. No, this is not a debate; this is a statement.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Sorry.

Paul Davies AC: Mike Hedges.

Mike Hedges AC: Sorry. Far too often, landlords, including local authorities, dismiss it as, 'It's just condensation.' People still have water running down their walls. They still have all the problems, but it's dismissed as, 'It's not a problem.' For the people living there, it is.

Julie James AC: Yes. I'm very happy to say exactly that, Mike. It's part of the current WHQS, but what we've done here is strengthen it. I'm very aware of the issue of condensation. I, too, grew up in a council house, as you well know. My grandmother thought it was the best thing that had ever happened to her and her entire family, which it undoubtedly was. What we want is to recreate that experience for the current generation. So, yes, we've been very clear that, in the new standard, homes should be properly ventilated, and they should be adequately both cooled and heated as appropriate. There absolutely is a re-emphasis on no mould or damp. But, of course, the real issue here is that we're looking for energy efficiency, low-carbon heating systems and better insulation, which will solve those problems in and of themselves.

Carolyn Thomas AS: I welcome this statement, Minister. In every community, you can see investment in our social housing brought about through the WHQS and Welsh Government investment in capital enveloping schemes, new windows, roofs, doors and insulation, making them warmer, plus new kitchens and bathrooms. It's there to see in all communities. It's wonderful.
Often, though, I do see, side by side, a stark difference of those houses that remain under council housing ownership and those that have been bought out by private landlords. A social housing tenant, who had chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, told me the difference the investment had made to her standard of living and how her health had improved. I wanted to relay that to you today. It made such a difference to her. And I welcome the addition that all properties going through transfer will have flooring in them. That's been raised so many times with me, about, 'Why aren't carpets left here?' or whatever. It's just something basic. And also, biodiversity—fantastic to see that through.
Times change, as do administrations, so should local authorities who have previously transferred their housing stock to housing associations want to begin again to rebuild their housing stock, what support can Welsh Government provide to help facilitate this?

Julie James AC: Yes. Thank you, Carolyn. I couldn't agree more. As I said in response to Janet Finch-Saunders, we have a number of things available for private landlords and private sector owners, so if you are aware of somebody who wants to access that, please do get in touch, because we have lease scheme Wales and we have a number of loans we're working on, together with my colleague Vaughan Gething and the Development Bank of Wales. We have them for businesses and for residential. So, there are a number of available loans.
If a local authority wants to reacquire their status as a housing authority, it can only acquire up to 50 houses before it has to reopen its housing revenue account and set itself up as a housing authority. If you're aware of any non-stock-holding authority that wants to do that, then just tell them to get in touch with us. There is a process to go through. I haven't been contacted by any authority who wants to do that, although I have had conversations with a number of them about the possibility, so please do ask them to get in touch. And, of course, we have the large-scale voluntary transfers, so the stock-transfer RSLs in the areas, and we do work with them on the same standard, and with the non-stock-holding authorities, so I'm very happy to facilitate that conversation if you want us to.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you. I very much welcome your statement and the ambition of it to ensure that everybody is living in a warm home who's living in social housing. Of course, people living in social housing are privileged compared with people living in private rented homes, which are far colder and more expensive. So, obviously, that's for a different day.
Seventy million pounds this year and £70 million next year is a lot of money, but it isn't sufficient, we know that. So, I just wondered how local authorities are going to get guidance on how they're going to apportion it. Cardiff Council is blessed with still having council stock and has done a good job on bringing it up to standard—the previous standard. In the past, area-based schemes were done on an estate-by-estate basis, but those who were leaseholders weren't charged, which meant that other people living in council housing elsewhere didn't get the scheme. Excuse me. So, I wondered if you could tell us whether you think those who own or lease their home will be charged so that more people who are tenants can then get the benefit of the £70 million.

Julie James AC: So, there are a couple of things to unpack there. So, just in terms of the funding, as you know, we're doing a whole-stock assessment for each of the registered social landlords, including the stock-holding councils. So, we expect them to then take a fabric-worst approach. So, we expect them to apportion the funding to the worst first, effectively, and we'll work with them to decide what that is, and we'll be looking at that in terms of whether whole-area schemes will work. I'm very sure you're familiar with the previous iteration of the Welsh housing quality standard where whole streets were enveloped, as it's called, because it's cheaper to do it like that, but we'll be working with them.
Some of the acceptable fails we've had previously are where a tenant didn't want the work done to their home, and we've had to wait for the tenancy to end. These are people's homes, so we have to work with that. We obviously work very hard with people to try and persuade them, but if they can't be persuaded, then you have to wait for the tenancy to turn over. Although, generally speaking, when the area scheme starts up, people tend to change their minds, in my experience.
We've also got the Warm Homes programme, which my colleague Jane Hutt and I have been working on for some time as part of the fuel poverty strategy. That also will take an area approach, but that's for owner-occupiers or the private rented sector, and we've done exactly as you suggest. So, if there's eligibility in a street, but a few of the houses are not eligible, and it would be beneficial to do a whole-street solution, we will do that anyway, assuming we can get buy-in from all of the people living there, but that's usually not too difficult to do, and we'll do that through our warm energy hub and through the local energy assessment process that we have asked our local authorities to do.
So, just to sum up, we expect, really, the funding to go to the fabric-worst-first approach, we'll work with the local authorities and with our RSLs to determine what that is, and then in three years' time, when we've got all of the whole-stock assessment in, we'll be able to recalibrate again.

Paul Davies AC: Finally, Ken Skates.

Ken Skates AC: Diolch, acting Presiding Officer. Minister, I'd like to thank you for this outstanding statement. It contains huge ambition, which is very welcome indeed. And it is true that the scale of the challenge is extensive, but it's also a huge opportunity in employment and economic terms. So, will you be working with the economy Minister in looking at how we maximise the economic and employment benefits of the investment that you'll be making into social housing? The extra money is a significant sum. How do you anticipate ensuring that as much of that investment as possible remains with Welsh firms, who will be procured to undertake the work of upgrading social housing? Diolch.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Julie James AC: Yes. Some very good points, Ken Skates. I've already outlined that we'll be working with economy officials and with the Minister for Economy on the apprenticeship programme, and on rolling the skills base out. We will be making sure that as much of the Welsh pound stays in the Welsh economy as possible. We work with our RSLs and our stock-holding councils to make sure that they get the benefit of that. Many of our stock-holding councils, of course, still have direct labour organisations that benefit from that, so they will be able to directly take on both new craftspeople and, indeed, apprentices. So, I think you're right: this is not only a great opportunity for the tenants; it's actually a real economic investment in the future.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I thank the Minister.

9. The Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2023

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The next item will be the Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2023. I call on the Minister for Climate Change, once again, to move the motion. Julie James.

Motion NDM8386 Lesley Griffiths
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5, approves that the draft The Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2023 is made in accordance with the draft laid in the Table Office on 28 June 2023.

Motion moved.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I move the motion to approve the Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2023. The regulations were laid in draft before the Senedd on 28 June. They amend Schedule 9 Part 2 to the Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2016.
The Welsh Government committed to amending those regulations in response to the 2021 consultation on the extended producer responsibility for packaging, the EPR scheme, to obtain enhanced packaging waste data from materials facilities. Improving the quantity and quality of packaging data that materials facilities are required to collect, record and report will support fair and accurate cost assessments and payments under the EPR scheme. This will, in turn, help move the cost of dealing with waste generated by households from local taxpayers and councils to businesses that handle and use packaging, making producers responsible for the packaging they place on the market.
I've sought to streamline the existing sampling requirements through amending the Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) Regulations 2016, rather than creating an additional sampling regime. The regulations will introduce enhanced sampling, recording and reporting requirements for materials facilities, and extend the scope of the regulations to include more types of facilities. Materials facilities will be in the scope of the amended regulations if they receive and manage at least 1,000 tonnes of household or household-type material a year for the purpose of reuse and recycling. Sampling and reporting will be conducted more often, for more material types. There will be an increase in the number of categories from four to 10, including a requirement to record data on fibre composites, such as drink cartons and coffee cups that have a layer of aluminium or plastic inside. Materials facilities will also need to report supplier and destination information for the waste they manage. Provision of this data was previously voluntary.
Introducing controls to support a robust extended producer responsibility scheme, which incentivises waste reduction by businesses and keeps resources in use for longer, will help to build a stronger, greener economy, and support progress towards decarbonisation. Diolch.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I have no other speakers on this item, so I'm sure that the Minister won't want to say anything in response to anybody. So, the proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? There's no objection, therefore the motion is agreed.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

10. The Environmental Protection (Single-use Plastic Products) (Wales) Act 2023 (Commencement No. 1) Order 2023

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The next item will be the Environmental Protection (Single-use Plastic Products) (Wales) Act 2023 (Commencement No. 1) Order 2023. The Minister, once again, Julie James, to speak on this item.

Motion NDM8387 Lesley Griffiths
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5, approves that the draft The Environmental Protection (Single-use Plastic Products) (Wales) Act 2023 (Commencement No. 1) Order 2023 is made in accordance with the draft laid in the Table Office on 3 October 2023.

Motion moved.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I move the motion. I'm here today to present the Environmental Protection (Single-use Plastic Products) (Wales) Act 2023 (Commencement No. 1) Order 2023. This Order will commence the provisions of the Environmental Protection (Single-use Plastic Products) (Wales) Act 2023, that enable our introduction of the first phase of bans.
As previously noted during the Bill's passage through the Senedd, the prohibition of the single-use plastic products listed in the Schedule to the Act is to commence in two phases. This Order introduces the first phase of prohibitions, and, subject to your approval, these will commence on 30 October 2023. This first phase will include single-use plastic cups, cutlery, drink stirrers, plastic-stemmed cotton buds, plates, takeaway food containers and balloon sticks. For plastic straws, we have provided exemptions on both health and disability grounds.
The second phase will commence before the end of this Senedd term, and will include single-use plastic carrier bags, lids for cups and takeaway food containers, and products made of oxo-degradable plastic. The Act obtained cross-party support in the Senedd and provides a key step in shifting consumer behaviour away from single-use plastic products towards more sustainable or, even better, reusable alternatives. Work is already under way at UK level to explore how best to address other problematic products, such as wet wipes containing plastic, and single-use vapes. I commend this motion to the Siambr.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Diolch, Llywydd. And I couldn't let a Tuesday afternoon go without standing to make a few comments. We considered this draft Order on 16 October. The Welsh Government subsequently responded to the points in our report, and we were able to consider that response in our meeting yesterday afternoon.
Now, as the Minister has outlined, there's a number of provisions in the Environmental Protection (Single-use Plastic Products) (Wales) Act 2023 that came into force on 7 June 2023, the day after the Act received Royal Assent. The Order brings into force eight of the 11 entries in the table of prohibited single-use plastic products in the Schedule to the 2023 Act. So, our report on the draft Order contains three merits points. Our first simply highlights that, whilst not unwelcome, it is unusual for a commencement Order to be subject to this level of Senedd scrutiny. Helpfully, it being subject to a debate and a vote in this Chamber today, potentially, depending what Members think, enables me to highlight to all Members of the Senedd our second and third merits reporting points. So, our report highlights the relevance of the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020, the UKIMA, to the implementation of the 2023 Act. During the passage of the Bill that became the 2023 Act, we raised concerns about the impact of the market access principles on the effectiveness of the proposed legislation.
Now, Members will know that the internal market Act contains market access principles that broadly ensure that goods that may be sold lawfully in one part of the UK may also be sold elsewhere in the UK, free from any relevant requirements that would otherwise apply to the sale in that other part of the UK. So far so good. The prohibited products being brought into force by the Order are the same as the items excluded from the internal market access principles by paragraph 13 of Schedule 1 to the internal market Act. The products listed in the three entries in the table, which are not brought into force by the Order, as the Minister has mentioned—lids for cups or takeaway food containers, carrier bags and products made from oxo-degradable plastic—are not included in that Schedule paragraph in the internal market Act, so do not appear to be covered by the exclusion from the market access principles. So, with that in mind, we asked the Welsh Government to explain why the prohibitions relating to lids for cups or takeaway food containers, carrier bags and products made of oxo-degradable plastic are not being commenced at this stage, and when those remaining entries in the table will be commenced, which the Minister has referred to today, and how many further phases are planned to bring the remaining prohibitions into force. And we also asked whether the Welsh Government continues to hold the view that the 2023 Act will be fully effective and enforceable when fully commenced. The response we received from Welsh Government stated its position that, where the Senedd legislates in non-reserved areas, it does so free from the requirements of the internal market Act, meaning that, in its view, the prohibitions provided for in the 2023 Act will be fully effective and enforceable, regardless of the regulatory positions elsewhere in the United Kingdom. That's very clear.
We were also told that the second and final phase of implementation will include those products not banned elsewhere in the UK—so, the single-use plastic carrier bags, the polystyrene lids for cups and takeaway food containers, and those products made of oxo-degradable plastics—and this phased approach is intended to provide business with additional time to transition away from these products and source alternatives. That's good.
So, as regards the Welsh Government's position on the internal market Act, I simply want to reiterate my committee's view: we do accept that the internal market Act, as the Welsh Government argues, cannot limit the Senedd's legislative competence. That's not in dispute. However, our concern remains that once law is made by the Senedd, the internal market Act can impact on how effective that law is because of the market access principles that are introduced across the UK. Now, that's a view that the Welsh Government has itself expressed in relation to the UK Government’s legislation for England on genetic technology. So, what we are saying is consistent with what the Welsh Government has actually expressed in another piece of legislation. The Welsh Government also told us that whilst details of the timetable for the commencement of the second phase are still being finalised, the Minister has committed to commencing the prohibition of the remaining products before the end of this Senedd term, as she's confirmed today.
So, with those comments, we felt it's important that these matters are drawn to the Senedd’s attention this afternoon—the interplay between UKIMA and areas that are clearly within devolved competence. The areas of devolved competence are not in dispute; the impact of UKIMA on the actual practical application of that legislation continues to interest us as a committee. Diolch yn fawr.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I have no further speakers. The Minister wishes to respond to the Chair.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I'm tempted to say that the Chair of the legislation and justice committee has answered his own questions in his own speech, but, just to reiterate the point, we've been clear throughout the passage of this Bill in the Senedd that the Welsh Government's position is and remains that where the Senedd legislates in non-reserved areas, it does so free from the requirements of the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020. As far as we're concerned, this means that the prohibitions provided in the Environmental Protection (Single-use Plastic Products) (Wales) Act 2023 will be fully effective and enforceable, regardless of the regulatory positions elsewhere in the United Kingdom. That was then, and is now, our position. Diolch.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. That motion is also agreed.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: And that concludes our business for today.

The meeting ended at 18:06.

QNR

Questions to the First Minister

Hefin David: How does the Welsh Government support the delivery of affordable homes?

Mark Drakeford: This Government delivers affordable housing across all of Wales, providing record levels of funding through the Social Housing Grant including £300m in 2023-24. In addition, we are delivering more social sector homes as quickly as possible, through initiatives such as the Transitional Accommodation Capital Programme.

Tom Giffard: What action is the Welsh Government taking to promote a diverse range of public transport options in South Wales West?

Mark Drakeford: Our National Transport Delivery Plan sets out the action the Welsh Government is taking to promote a diverse range of public transport options in South Wales West.